The effectual Call

[The Biblicist]

1 Thes. 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The gospel comes many times to many people "in word only" (general non-effectual call) without "power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance". Indeed, that is how it most often comes from the lips of men as most, and in some cases, all their audiance rejects it and go away as lost as when they came.

Notice, Paul is instructing the church at Thessalonica how they can "know" their "election of God." The gospel does not come in "word only" when it is God's elect time to save them. It comes "in power' and it comes "in the Holy Ghost" and it comes "with much assurance." This last element proves it comes savingly as "assurance" cannot be given a lost person to "know....their election of God."

This is the calling of Romans 8:30 where ALL God foreknew were ALL predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son and ALL who were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son were ALL called and ALL justified and ALL glorified. He is talking about His "elect" as he goes on to say who shall lay anything to "God's elect" because it is Christ that "justifies THEM."

To the Corinthians he told them to "see your calling" that "NOT MANY" wise or noble are "CALLED BY GOD" but "GOD HATH CHOSEN" those He calls and they are the offscouring of the world and He called them purposely to confound the wise and remove any grounds for glorying in anything but God's grace.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If this is not an effectual call then how can Paul say that God does not call "many" who are of a certain class???

 

[Iconoclast]

2 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[saturneptune]

1 Thes. 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The gospel comes many times to many people "in word only" (general non-effectual call) without "power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance". Indeed, that is how it most often comes from the lips of men as most, and in some cases, all their audiance rejects it and go away as lost as when they came.

Notice, Paul is instructing the church at Thessalonica how they can "know" their "election of God." The gospel does not come in "word only" when it is God's elect time to save them. It comes "in power' and it comes "in the Holy Ghost" and it comes "with much assurance." This last element proves it comes savingly as "assurance" cannot be given a lost person to "know....their election of God."

This is the calling of Romans 8:30 where ALL God foreknew were ALL predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son and ALL who were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son were ALL called and ALL justified and ALL glorified. He is talking about His "elect" as he goes on to say who shall lay anything to "God's elect" because it is Christ that "justifies THEM."

To the Corinthians he told them to "see your calling" that "NOT MANY" wise or noble are "CALLED BY GOD" but "GOD HATH CHOSEN" those He calls and they are the offscouring of the world and He called them purposely to confound the wise and remove any grounds for glorying in anything but God's grace.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If this is not an effectual call then how can Paul say that God does not call "many" who are of a certain class???

Thanks for starting the thread. There is no more important issue than being secure and 100% sure of ones salvation, which is the result of the effectual call. The power of the Holy Spirit in a Christian testifies to the individual the he or she is saved.

Scripture gives us many signs of salvation. One has been discussed at length as of late, Romans 6-8. If there is no internal struggle, there is no salvation in the first place. John, in his books 1, 2, and 3 uses the phrase many times "I write this that you might know you are saved" if we love our fellow Christian, if we have the Spirit of Christ in us, etc. He also gives signs of those not saved, such as "if we say we have no sin..............."

The reason your opponents ignore the effectual call verses is the same reason they ignore the election verses, and maybe they do not even realize it. What they are doing in essence is putting God on a level of half sovereignty level so they have control of their destiny, even to the point of making Holy decisions in a totally depraved, fallen state.

Another point made very well by Biblicist is that a one time walking away from a call does not prove irresistible grace is false. If one is elect, they will obtain salvation, maybe not the first, second or third time, but one can be certain it will happen.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Think everyone here would recognize that Jesus seeks and saves, not man.

I can persuade, cajole and threaten, but unless Jesus saves, it is a moot point. Salvation is of the Lord.

Anything less puts man in charge of his salvation, man controlling eternal life. I often joke of the pelagian/semi-pelagian heresy "If it's going to be, it's up to me". Sadly, for some, it seems not a joke.

Thanks for reminding us in this thread of that special invisible inward work of the holy Spirit of God that brings us to salvation. It is 100% of God and for that I am eternally thankful.

I make a really great sinner, but I'm a lousy savior. :thumbsup:

 

[Inspector Javert]

1 Thes. 1:4 Notice, Paul is instructing the church at Thessalonica how they can "know" their "election of God."

No he isn't, Biblicist. He is telling that church how HE "knows" and is assured of their election.
1Th 1:2 ¶ We give thanks
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work
He is saying how "WE" i.e. (Paul, Timothy, Silvanus et al...) know "YOUR" election. Paul and his ilk are the Direct Objects who are actually in the state of "knowing".
He gives 3 different evidences:
1.) He appeals to his OWN manner of preaching as being filled with the Holy Ghost, and not with mere words:
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power,
(The book of Acts can leave us with the impression that sometimes Paul can be quite boring in his preaching, so also I Cor. thus, only Holy Spirit can do the work)
2.) He appeals to evidence and fruit and good report of others whom they had reached with the gospel:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
3.) And he appeals to their true repentance and turning from idols to follow God:
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

This is the calling of Romans 8:30 where ALL God foreknew were ALL predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son and ALL who were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son were ALL called and ALL justified and ALL glorified. He is talking about His "elect" as he goes on to say who shall lay anything to "God's elect" because it is Christ that "justifies THEM."

Outside of the fact that it serves your purposes....there is no PARTICULAR reason why one must, or should cross-reference IThess 1 with Romans 8:30. No particular reason whatsoever. Nothing Paul said about those in Thessalonica here applies to the Romans. There is nothing written in I Thess 1, which should cause one's mind to make some correlation to the completely un-related statement made in Romans 8:30.
Other than.........it serves your purpose, which is to enable you to insert the words "foreknow", "called" and "pre-destinate" into a passage which, I assume, would already contain them if the Holy Spirit had wanted it to. But, alas, they are not.

To the Corinthians he told them to "see your calling" that "NOT MANY" wise or noble are "CALLED BY GOD" but "GOD HATH CHOSEN" those He calls and they are the offscouring of the world and He called them purposely to confound the wise and remove any grounds for glorying in anything but God's grace.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The purpose is to demonstrate the power of the message of gospel preaching....and incidentally, this DOES cross-reference with IThess 1 QUITE WELL :wavey:: (because it was the foolishness of preaching which is used...and Paul mentions the power of the simple preaching of the cross to the Thessalonians and not his "excellency of speach" as an evidence of the reality of the Thessalonians' conversion.) Paul's purpose, rather than a specific commentary on the mechanics of salvation...is to demonstrate that their inter-personal bickering and separation of themselves as followers of men is absurd:
1Cr 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
......that there are contentions among you.
1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Paul mentions the foolishness of preaching etc....as evidence that it is not flowery wisdom and words of men that they should follow, but the simplicity of the gospel.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
This is the purpose of the passage...it is not a descriptor of the mechanics of salvation.

If this is not an effectual call then how can Paul say that God does not call "many" who are of a certain class???

You are asking someone to prove a negative. That's not possible. You can't ask questions like that. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that it is "effectual". There is no reason to first assume it, and then insist someone else debunk it. You are shifting the "burden of proof". You might begin with a passage which actually says that the calling is "effectual", and no passage you have mentioned says so.

 

[SovereignMercy]

The castle of the human heart,
Strong in its native sin,
Is guarded well in every part,
By him who dwells within.

For Satan there in arms resides,
And calls the place his own;
With care against assaults provides,
And rules as on a throne.

Each traitor thought, on him as chief,
In blind obedience waits;
And pride, self-will, and unbelief,
Are posted at the gates.

Thus Satan for a season reigns,
And keeps his goods in peace;
The soul is pleas’d to wear his chains,
Nor wishes a release.

But Jesus, stronger far than he,
In His appointed hour,
Appears to set His people free
From the usurper’s pow’r.

“This heart I bought with blood,” He says,
“And now it shall be mine;”
His voice the strong one arm’d dismays,
He knows he must resign.

In spite of unbelief and pride,
And self, and Satan’s art,
The gates of brass fly open wide,
And Jesus wins the heart.

The rebel soul that once withstood
The Saviour’s kindest call,
Rejoices now, by grace subdu’d,
To serve Him with her all.

John Newton

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I usually dont like poems & such ....but I read it anyway. Normally I would just blow this off but JOHN NEWTON is a totally different story. Somehow he reaches me.

Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anything less puts man in charge of his salvation, man controlling eternal life. I often joke of the pelagian/semi-pelagian heresy "If it's going to be, it's up to me". Sadly, for some, it seems not a joke.

T

Bob....here is my experience with that bit, "Managers tell you that right before they send you to do an impossible task"....IE its a prologue to chaos.:tonofbricks:

 

[The Biblicist]

No he isn't, Biblicist. He is telling that church how HE "knows" and is assured of their election.

Consider what you are saying. Whether it is "he" or "them" it is these things that provide that knowledge in regard to them instead of to others as that is the very nature of the word "election" to "choose" out from among others. Hence, if it is these things that provide that specific knowledge of election then these things do not characterize EVERYONE Paul preaches unto or every time the gospel is preached or else EVERYONE would be the elect.

Second, it is impossible for either Paul or them to know HOW these things "came...to you" without their own testimony in response to the gospel. It is their own testimony in response to the gospel that establishes this knowledge of their election by God. It is their "assurance" of salvation that provides the evidence that the Gospel did not come to them in "word only" but in "power and in the Holy Spirit."

These words make no sense if this is how the gospel came to EVERYONE Paul preached unto.

Outside of the fact that it serves your purposes....there is no PARTICULAR reason why one must, or should cross-reference IThess 1 with Romans 8:30. No particular reason whatsoever. Nothing Paul said about those in Thessalonica here applies to the Romans.

Again, if the gospel "came not to you in word only" as demonstrated by these three other characteristics and these things are what provide Paul with knowledge of their election by God, then such things must be ABSENT when the gospel comes to others or else they provide NO BASIS FOR KNOWLEGE OF ELECTION for anyone in particular or everyone Paul preached to was the elect of God.

If these things really separated them apart as the elect of God in the mind of Paul from others, then the gospel did come to others different than to them and that is effectually calling through the gospel that distinguishes them as God's elect from others where the gospel comes only in word but not "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance."

Therefore, there is a direct connection between this PROOF of their election due to how the gospel came to them and Romans 8:30 as it is the "elect" (v. 32) that Paul is speaking about in Romans 8:28-30 as ALL that are foreknown, are predestinated, and ALL that are predesinated are CALLED and all that are CALLED are Justified and all justified are GLORIFIED. These things cannot be said of the non-elect and this clearly seen starting with verse 30 working backwards.

1. The non-elect are not glorified but ONLY the elect
2. The non-elect are not justified but ONLY the elect
3. The non-elect are not called but ONLY the elect
4. The non-elect are not predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ but ONLY the elect
5. The non-elect are not foreknown according to God's purpose of working all things for the good but ONLY the elect
6. The non-elect are not those who are CALLED according to God's purpose of working all tings to their good but ONLY the elect
7. The non-elect are not those who love God but ONLY the elect.

Romans 8:28 proves effectual calling just by itself according to God's eternal purpose of salvation.

1Cr 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
......that there are contentions among you.
1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Paul mentions the foolishness of preaching etc....as evidence that it is not flowery wisdom and words of men that they should follow, but the simplicity of the gospel.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
This is the purpose of the passage...it is not a descriptor of the mechanics of salvation.

Your missing the point of this context. The specific and immediate division was over the administrator of baptism. They had exalted themselves above others due to the administrator of their baptism (vv. 12-16). So the issue here is self-boasting due to the administrator of their baptism.

Paul argues that the gospel takes precedence over baptism (vv. 17-18) and that the gospel derives its power from God alone rather than through any man or their own wisdom (vv. 19-25). Their effectual calling through the gospel proves there is no basis for boasting in themselves or in the minister of the gospel as evidenced in God's selective choice of their own persons, as God did not choose to effectual call many mighty, nobel or wise as their own membership reveals. God chose the offscouring so that none could boast in HIs presence like they were now boasting. Their whole salvation from beginning to end was "OF GOD" and so there is no basis to glory in ANY PREACHER or in themselves.

You, like many have not yet learned this simple truth that your entire salvation is "OF GOD" alone as even the gospel can come in "word only" and avail nothing no matter how wise or eloquent the preacher (ch. 2:1-10) but it is the power of the Holy Spirit that distinguishes between its effectual application to whom God wills.

 

[Inspector Javert]

You, like many have not yet learned this simple truth that your entire salvation is "OF GOD" alone

AND............it's when statements like this one are made that I maintain that it is pointless to continue a discussion with a Calvinist.

 

[The Biblicist]

AND............it's when statements like this one are made that I maintain that it is pointless to continue a discussion with a Calvinist.

No, it is when statements like this are made WITH PROOF accompanying them that you use this statement so that you don't have to face and deal with the PROOF accompanying this statement!!

You choose to interpret this statement to be insultive instead of factual BASED ON ACCOMPANYING EVIDENCE to prove the statement is factual. It serves only as an EXCUSE to run from the evidences.

 

[InTheLight]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
You, like many have not yet learned this simple truth that your entire salvation is "OF GOD" alone

AND............it's when statements like this one are made that I maintain that it is pointless to continue a discussion with a Calvinist.

Ahhh...is he deliberately mischaracterizing your beliefs so he can make a debating counterpoint to a strawman?
Tsk tsk.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ahhh...is he deliberately mischaracterizing your beliefs so he can make a debating counterpoint to a strawman?
Tsk tsk.

No, it is the old trick of avoiding the evidences by picking out a statement that you can use to justify escape from dealing with the evidences that prove that statement to be true!

 

[SovereignMercy]

Bib, do you think that you can logically argue with these folks and get them to change their views? If so, do you really believe in total depravity?

And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

 

[Winman]

Bib, do you think that you can logically argue with these folks and get them to change their views? If so, do you really believe in total depravity?

You must believe that the non-Cals on this thread are not saved and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit if you believe they are totally depraved and cannot understand spiritual truths.

Is that what you are implying here?

I will give you this though, it is nice to see a consistent Calvinist. For if Total Depravity is true, then it is useless to debate with the lost.

 

[agedman]

For if Total Depravity is true, then it is useless to debate with the lost.

No doubt Paul did a lot of "debating" in the local synagogs just as Christ spoke openly and plainly to the religious folk of His day.

When Lazarus was dead to the world (Christ said he was sleeping) was he responsive to any human voice?

What raised Lazarus?

What raises the dead heart?

The Word of God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

​

When the Father lays claim to a dead human, that dead human will respond.

 

[Winman]

No doubt Paul did a lot of "debating" in the local synagogs just as Christ spoke openly and plainly to the religious folk of His day.

When Lazarus was dead to the world (Christ said he was sleeping) was he responsive to any human voice?

What raised Lazarus?

What raises the dead heart?

The Word of God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

​

When the Father lays claim to a dead human, that dead human will respond.

Oh, I agree. The scriptures do not teach Total Inability, they teach the DEAD can hear.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the hour is coming and "now is" when THE DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear SHALL (future tense) live.

This is clearly speaking of spiritual death, not physical, as Jesus speaks of physical death several verses later.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Note the differences here from verse 25;

1- Jesus says the hour is coming. This is a future event, this is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not say "and now is" as he said in vs. 25. People were presently believing when Jesus preached the gospel and were being made spiritually alive at the present time, this is what Jesus is speaking of in verse 25.

2- Jesus does not say "the dead" shall hear in vs. 28, he says "all that are in the graves". This is because Jesus never calls the dead in Christ "dead" but "the living"

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all physically dead when Jesus said this, but Jesus called them "the living" because they were believers and their sins were forgiven. They were no longer dead in trespasses and sins.

Likewise, in the resurrection of the physical dead there will be many believers, therefore Jesus did not call these persons "the dead" in John 5:28, but speaks of "all that are in the graves". This applies to both believers and unbelievers who have died and have been buried. Those that believed in their lifetime will be raised to the "resurrection of life", unbelievers will be raised to the "resurrection of damnation".

So, Jhn 5:25 is speaking of spiritual death, while Jhn 5:28 is speaking of physical death.

Jesus said the spiritually dead can hear his voice NOW, and those that hear shall live.

John 5:25 refutes Total Inability.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Be careful NOT to "question salvation" of folks simply because they disagree with your interpretation/understanding of the Word.

Proclaim biblical truth and let GOD work in hearts. He does so in regenerated the lost and He does so the illuminating the redeemed.

 

[agedman]

Oh, I agree. The scriptures do not teach Total Inability, they teach the DEAD can hear.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the hour is coming and "now is" when THE DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear SHALL (future tense) live.

This is clearly speaking of spiritual death, not physical, as Jesus speaks of physical death several verses later.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Note the differences here from verse 25;

1- Jesus says the hour is coming. This is a future event, this is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not say "and now is" as he said in vs. 25. People were presently believing when Jesus preached the gospel and were being made spiritually alive at the present time, this is what Jesus is speaking of in verse 25.

2- Jesus does not say "the dead" shall hear in vs. 28, he says "all that are in the graves". This is because Jesus never calls the dead in Christ "dead" but "the living"

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all physically dead when Jesus said this, but Jesus called them "the living" because they were believers and their sins were forgiven. They were no longer dead in trespasses and sins.

Likewise, in the resurrection of the physical dead there will be many believers, therefore Jesus did not call these persons "the dead" in John 5:28, but speaks of "all that are in the graves". This applies to both believers and unbelievers who have died and have been buried. Those that believed in their lifetime will be raised to the "resurrection of life", unbelievers will be raised to the "resurrection of damnation".

So, Jhn 5:25 is speaking of spiritual death, while Jhn 5:28 is speaking of physical death.

Jesus said the spiritually dead can hear his voice NOW, and those that hear shall live.

John 5:25 refutes Total Inability.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
​

I put John 5 above so that folks can look for their self.


Amazing, Winman actually does state that ONLY those saved will hear the voice - live.

Then draws the distinction between those saved and those lost.

Then actually states that John 5 refutes total inability!

Can anyone show just how John 5 doesn't show just how totally unable are the dead without Christ, both while they live and when they are physically dead?

 

[Winman]

Can anyone show just how John 5 doesn't show just how totally unable are the dead without Christ, both while they live and when they are physically dead?

I just explained this to you.

Does Jesus say "the living" shall hear his voice in John 5:25? NO, he said "the dead". This is speaking of the spiritually dead. It doesn't say God has to make them alive to be able to hear, it says that if they hear they "shall live" which means following and as a result of hearing Jesus's words.

This is what Paul shows in Romans 10:14;

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There is no other verse in scripture that so directly addresses the question "and how shall they believe in him" than Romans 10:14, speaking of Jesus.

Does Paul ask HOW they shall believe in him unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, and Paul never says that anywhere in all the scriptures.

No, Paul simply implies they must HEAR of Jesus.

Does Paul then ask HOW shall they HEAR unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul asks how shall they hear without a preacher. Does that sound like magic to you?

No, Paul implies here that men cannot believe in Jesus unless they HEAR of him, and that they cannot HEAR unless there be a PREACHER that goes and preaches the word of God to them.

Men have the ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know or has not heard. It is that simple!

Calvinism adds this necessity to be supernaturally regenerated to be willing to hear and to be able to believe when the scriptures say no such thing. You cannot show a single verse that supports this necessity to be regenerated to believe.

You should listen to the word of God and not the false doctrines of men.