The effectual Call

[agedman]

Calvinism adds this necessity to be supernaturally regenerated to be willing to hear and be able to believe when the scriptures say no such thing. You cannot show a single verse that supports this necessity to be regenerated to believe.

Winman if I can show you that a person who comes to salvation is "supernaturally regenerated to be willing to hear and be able to believe" would you actually accept the truth?

In the past, you have been shown the proof, but have rebuffed it.

So, are you now willing to recant your view if shown Scriptural proof?

I'm not about to spend untold posts in discussion of this matter.

You asked for ONE Scripture.

So, if you are shown one, (and there is more than one) will you?

 

[Winman]

Winman if I can show you that a person who comes to salvation is "supernaturally regenerated to be willing to hear and be able to believe" would you actually accept the truth?

In the past, you have been shown the proof, but have rebuffed it.

So, are you now willing to recant your view if shown Scriptural proof?

I'm not about to spend untold posts in discussion of this matter.

You asked for ONE Scripture.

So, if you are shown one, (and there is more than one) will you?

What are you waiting for? Show this scripture.

You will be the first Calvinist to ever show this verse, if there were such a verse, Calvinists would be quoting it constantly.

But bring it on.

 

[agedman]

What are you waiting for? Show this scripture.

You will be the first Calvinist to ever show this verse, if there were such a verse, Calvinists would be quoting it constantly.

But bring it on.

YOU would not be swayed even if shown.

That is why you wouldn't dare to even admit that if shown you would change.

It would oblige you to make a total change in your systematic belief system - which you obviously have no desire to consider.

I suppose you could rely upon the myth of preceding or prevenient grace (taught throughout the SB as true), which has absolutely no Scriptural foundation, but is pure human reasoning superimposed upon the Scriptures. A view in which a person is "made alive and alert" enough to respond to the gospel. That system indicates humankind has total depravity and lacks any ability of their own volition to believe. So actually you don't even accept that SB view, either.

You can't hold to the more liberal and typical arminian thinking because it embraces the some type of the view of the total depravity/lack of ability in that even they must ascribe to some definite purposeful divine intervention through the work of the Holy Spirit and gospel to bring a person to understand their need of Christ and desire to believe. So you are removed from that theological system.

I will admit this.

I may be in a minority when I state that, from the very first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification, the whole is under the purposed control and will of the Father.

That view is based upon the Scriptures: John 6:44, John 14:6; Matthew 16:16-17; Matthew 11:27; John 6:65. It is also based upon the examples of actual salvation experiences given of Paul, the Eunuch, Cornelius, the Philippian Jailor,... of OT patriarchs, and even the testimony of those on the BB. Not one has stated they believed by their own intellectual decision and volition without the direct and purposed convicting power of God.

So, I suppose I have to also admit, that in this post, I have shown not just one but more than one Scripture that the direct and purposeful awakening (regeneration) must occur for the person to be drawn, and all those drawn will be saved.

There is always hope that you will change your thinking.

 

[Winman]

I would be the first to agree that a man must be drawn before he can come to Jesus. But John 6:45 explains exactly how a man is drawn, by hearing God and learning from him, being taught by the Father.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it DOES NOT say every person who is drawn comes to Jesus. You can insist that is what it says, but it does not.

Verse 45 shows how men are drawn, when they hear the word of God. A man who listens to God and learns from him will come to Jesus Christ. Those men who refuse to hear will not. This is shown in Proverbs 1:

Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

God doesn't force or compel a man to hear, you must listen and hear for yourself. If you are wise you will listen, if you are a fool you will not.

Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

This whole passage is about fools who refuse to listen to God. God tells men to turn at his reproof, and only if they turn or repent, THEN he will pour out his Spirit to them and make them to know his words.

But these men hated knowledge, they loved simplicity. They did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD.

But note vs. 33, the man that harkens or listens to God, the man who willingly hears God shall be saved.

God does not give you his Spirit unless you first repent and believe him.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The scriptures always show the order that a man must

#1 Hear God's word

#2 Believe God's word

#3 Receive the Holy Spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

No man can be regenerated until he has the indwelling Spirit according to Romans 8:9, and no man receives the Spirit until he first hears God's word and believes it.

You have not shown one single scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. No Calvinist has EVER shown this in hundreds of years.

 

[Winman]

That view is based upon the Scriptures: John 6:44, John 14:6; Matthew 16:16-17; Matthew 11:27; John 6:65. It is also based upon the examples of actual salvation experiences given of Paul, the Eunuch, Cornelius, the Philippian Jailor,... of OT patriarchs, and even the testimony of those on the BB. Not one has stated they believed by their own intellectual decision and volition without the direct and purposed convicting power of God.

Let's look at those scriptures and see if any of them say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does John 6:44 say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe? NOPE, it does not even mention faith or regeneration at all.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Does Mat 16:16-17 say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe? NOPE, it does not mention being regenerated at all. It does say that the fact that Jesus is the Christ was revealed to Peter by the Father, but it does not say Peter had to be regenerated to believe this revelation, you are reading that into the text.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Does Mat 11:27 say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe? NOPE, but it does say no man knows the Father except the Son and to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. But again, it does not say a man must be regenerated to believe that revelation, you are again reading this into the text where it says no such thing.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Does Jhn 6:65 say that no man can have the ability to believe unless he is regenerated? NOPE, it says no such thing. It does say that no man can come to Jesus unless it were given unto him by the Father, which I believe is speaking of God's words spoken of by Jesus in verse 65, but it does not say a man has to be regenerated in order to believe these words.

In all of these scriptures you are reading Total Inability into them where it is not mentioned. Not one of these verses says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe the word of God.

You just don't get it, you have been indoctrinated by Reformed doctrine to read TULIP into scripture where it does not exist. Practically every Calvinist will give these same exact verses as you to "prove" regeneration. This is indoctrination, the scriptures say no such thing.

 

[agedman]

I would be the first to agree that a man must be drawn before he can come to Jesus. But John 6:45 explains exactly how a man is drawn, by hearing God and learning from him, being taught by the Father.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it DOES NOT say every person who is drawn comes to Jesus. You can insist that is what it says, but it does not.

Verse 45 shows how men are drawn, when they hear the word of God. A man who listens to God and learns from him will come to Jesus Christ. Those men who refuse to hear will not.

Would you actually stand against what Christ stated?

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

It places no conditions as to status, state, or response of humankind.

The sentence states two things have to happen and the results.

First, NO HUMAN can come without the father's will.

Second, The Father will do the drawing.

The results - ALL drawn will be raised up at the last day.


It does seem that you desire to place some exclusion clause that the Scriptures do not grant.

..."ALL DRAWN WILL be raised up at the last day."

..."ALL the Father GIVES ME WILL COME..."

These two verses alone show that Salvation is based upon work ALREADY done by the Holy Spirit. Work that includes regeneration.

Here are some others:

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.


​

You can chase all over the Scriptures to try to prove what is untruth, but ultimately if you refuse the clear statements of Christ then you have missed foundational truth in which to align all other Scriptures on the matter.

When attempts to make a statement such as: "Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it DOES NOT say every person who is drawn comes to Jesus." in effect that is putting one's own thinking above what Christ clearly stated.

Because the verse DOES state that exact point.

Christ WILL raise them up.

Such a statement by Christ is consistent with every other statement that Christ made on the subject.

 

[Winman]

Would you actually stand against what Christ stated?

Of course not, I believe whatever the Bible says.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

It places no conditions as to status, state, or response of humankind.

Agreed, except they must come. Jesus is promising to raise up the ones who come.

The sentence states two things have to happen and the results.

It says no man can come unless the Father draws him, and that person who comes will be raised up the last day.

First, NO HUMAN can come without the father's will.

Agreed.

Second, The Father will do the drawing.

Agreed

The results - ALL drawn will be raised up at the last day.

FALSE, it does not say all drawn will come or be raised up the last day, you are reading that into the text.

It does seem that you desire to place some exclusion clause that the Scriptures do not grant.

No, I read this scripture for what it says and do not ADD to it. You are adding to what it says, it does not say all who are drawn will come and be raised up the last day, although it does say "all who come" will be raised up the last day. That is a HUGE difference in meaning that seems to go over your head.

..."ALL DRAWN WILL be raised up at the last day."

False, it does not say that.

..."ALL the Father GIVES ME WILL COME..."

Correct.

These two verses alone show that Salvation is based upon work ALREADY done by the Holy Spirit. Work that includes regeneration.

FALSE, it does not say that. Regeneration and faith are not even mentioned in this verse.

Here are some others:

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

You left out verse 63 where Jesus said his words were spirit and they were life. This is what is given by the Father, the exact same thing shown in John 6:45. How do men learn from the Father? By hearing God's word.

Therefore, you cannot come to Jesus unless you believe God's word that was given to you.

6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This is altogether different, Jesus is saying he is the only way a man can be saved, you must trust in Jesus to be saved, there is no other way of salvation.

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Yes, but it didn't say Peter had to be regenerated to believe this revelation, you are reading that into the text.

27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Yes, no man can know the Father unless Jesus reveals the Father to him, but it doesn't say you have to be regenerated to believe this revelation, again you are reading that into the text. It says no such thing.

You can chase all over the Scriptures to try to prove what is untruth, but ultimately if you refuse the clear statements of Christ then you have missed foundational truth in which to align all other Scriptures on the matter.

You are the one adding to scripture what it does not say.

When attempts to make a statement such as: "Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it DOES NOT say every person who is drawn comes to Jesus." in effect that is putting one's own thinking above what Christ clearly stated.

Because the verse DOES state that exact point.

No it doesn't. Saying that no person can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him is not the same thing as saying every man that is drawn by the Father will come.

You could not have dinner with the President unless you were invited. Does that mean because you are invited you will have dinner with the President? NO, you may turn the invitation down, or you might have a heart attack and be unable to attend. You can't come unless you were invited, but that doesn't guarantee you will come. This is not hard to understand.

Christ WILL raise them up.

He will raise up the ones who come. The ones who do not come will not be raised up.

President Obama will serve steak to those who come to the dinner he invited you to, if you do not come you will not get steak.

Such a statement by Christ is consistent with every other statement that Christ made on the subject.

No it is not. You are reading into scripture what is not being said. The scriptures clearly show men whom God calls, draws, and invites to the wedding of his Son who refuse to come.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king here is God the Father, his son is of course Jesus Christ. God sent his servants (prophets/preachers) to call people and bid them to come to the wedding of his son AND THEY WOULD NOT COME.

Now, if you want to keep on insisting that everyone drawn and invited comes, you just keep on, but that is not what the scriptures show. The scriptures show that men can resist God's drawing and refuse to come.

I am not going to keep arguing with you.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would be the first to agree that a man must be drawn before he can come to Jesus. But John 6:45 explains exactly how a man is drawn, by hearing God and learning from him, being taught by the Father.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it DOES NOT say every person who is drawn comes to Jesus. You can insist that is what it says, but it does not.

Yes it does! You just admitted that John 6:45 "explains exactly how a man is drawn, by hearing God and learning from him, being taugh by the Father" and it also says "EVERY MAN" thus taught comes to Christ. Hence by your own admission "draw" = "taught" and "all" or "every man" thus taught comes to Christ.

 

[Winman]

Yes it does! You just admitted that John 6:45 "explains exactly how a man is drawn, by hearing God and learning from him, being taugh by the Father" and it also says "EVERY MAN" thus taught comes to Christ. Hence by your own admission "draw" = "taught" and "all" or "every man" thus taught comes to Christ.

No, because not all men listen, some refuse to hear. They are drawn, they can hear God calling them, but they will not come. I have already shown you Proverbs 1 numerous times where God calls and cries to men, but they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD.

But those who did listen to God were saved

When I was a boy, there was one kid whose father would whistle to come home for dinner every day at 5 PM. We all heard the whistle, but our friend would often ignore it because he wanted to continue playing with us. He was called, he was drawn, but he refused to hear.

 

[agedman]

No, because not all men listen, some refuse to hear. They are drawn, they can hear God calling them, but they will not come. I have already shown you Proverbs 1 numerous times where God calls and cries to men, but they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD.

But those who did listen to God were saved

When I was a boy, there was one kid whose father would whistle to come home for dinner every day at 5 PM. We all heard the whistle, but our friend would often ignore it because he wanted to continue playing with us. He was called, he was drawn, but he refused to hear.

They didn't answer because the person whistling was NOT their father.

John 10:

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


The neighborhood children wouldn't respond because it was not who heard but who was their father.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, because not all men listen, some refuse to hear. They are drawn, they can hear God calling them, but they will not come. I have already shown you Proverbs 1 numerous times where God calls and cries to men, but they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD.

That is because you are confusing the general call of the gospel versus the effectual call wherein God empowers the gospel so that His word does not come back void. You have to confuse the two and thus deny the existence of one to support your doctrine and interpretations of scripture.

However, Romans 8:28-30 does not provide any escapse as every single person that God works the good for according to His Person is "called" and that refers to every single person foreknown according to that purpose to work God for is also predestinated and every single person predestainaged according to His purpose to work good for is called and every single person called according to that purpose is justified and every single person justified according to tht purpose is glorified, what can YOU say to these things???

Likewise in 1 Cor. 1:26 "the called" are defined as "not many" from different classes and conditions of people but are the "chosen" but "many are called" by the general call but not all generally called are "chosen." The only ones "chosen" are those effectually called out from all sorts of races and classes of people.

But those who did listen to God were saved

This text says no such thing! The scripture quoted says "ALL" shall be taught of God and "taught" is then defined by Christ in the second clause. No human being can claim to be taught by God without "learning" as the word "taught" has no meaning apart from "learning". The text does not say God shall TRY to teach but that "ALL" shall be "TAUGHT" and "EVERY MAN" is equal to the "ALL" and thus "ALL" taught" in this manner do in fact come to Christ just as "all" given to Christ do in fact come to Christ.

When I was a boy, there was one kid whose father would whistle to come home for dinner every day at 5 PM. We all heard the whistle, but our friend would often ignore it because he wanted to continue playing with us. He was called, he was drawn, but he refused to hear.

When I was a boy dad would call for us to get up out of bed. But we did not always heed that call until he came up personaly with a belt and it was always an effectual call that got us out of bed.

When I was a boy I used to like to watch lightening but I noticed that although sheet lightening was pretty it hit nothing but just lit up the sky. However, forked lightening always hit something.

You are confusing the sheet lightening with forked lightening and you are confusing a johnny call to get out of bed with a personal belt call. You are confusing them because you deny one exists when in fact the scriptures clearly teach the existence of the effectual call.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Pointed out that this thread has basically become a Calvinist/Arminian debate and so it is moved, as is policy.

 

[Winman]

That is because you are confusing the general call of the gospel versus the effectual call wherein God empowers the gospel so that His word does not come back void. You have to confuse the two and thus deny the existence of one to support your doctrine and interpretations of scripture.

Pure baloney, there is no such thing as a "general call" and an "effectual call", that is a pure man-made doctrine. The scriptures show that the same gospel is preached to all men, but the gospel does not profit those who choose not to believe it.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This warning does not make sense in your system, there is no way an elect person can resist the effectual call, and there is no way the non-elect can answer the general call. Thus any warning would be nonsensical and completely unnecessary.

This passage shows the same gospel was preached to all men, but it did not profit those who refused to believe it. And the writer of Hebrews warns us to beware of unbelief unless we also fail of entering into God's rest because of unbelief. This warning makes no sense at all if Calvinism is true (it isn't).

However, Romans 8:28-30 does not provide any escapse as every single person that God works the good for according to His Person is "called" and that refers to every single person foreknown according to that purpose to work God for is also predestinated and every single person predestainaged according to His purpose to work good for is called and every single person called according to that purpose is justified and every single person justified according to tht purpose is glorified, what can YOU say to these things???

Of course every believer is called, but this does not mean unbelievers are not called.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called, but God only chooses those like Abraham who obeyed and answered the call. Many were called to the wedding of the king's son in Matthew 22, but only those who came with the wedding garment were chosen.

Likewise in 1 Cor. 1:26 "the called" are defined as "not many" from different classes and conditions of people but are the "chosen" but "many are called" by the general call but not all generally called are "chosen." The only ones "chosen" are those effectually called out from all sorts of races and classes of people.

That is because the wealthy and powerful are often proud and do not think they need God. They trust in their own abilities, power, and wealth.

This text says no such thing! The scripture quoted says "ALL" shall be taught of God and "taught" is then defined by Christ in the second clause. No human being can claim to be taught by God without "learning" as the word "taught" has no meaning apart from "learning". The text does not say God shall TRY to teach but that "ALL" shall be "TAUGHT" and "EVERY MAN" is equal to the "ALL" and thus "ALL" taught" in this manner do in fact come to Christ just as "all" given to Christ do in fact come to Christ.

Yes, God's children are taught of God, this is what makes them God's children, that they listen to and trust in God's word. Those who rebel and refuse to trust God's word are the children of the devil, they believe lies.

When I was a boy dad would call for us to get up out of bed. But we did not always heed that call until he came up personaly with a belt and it was always an effectual call that got us out of bed.

God does not beat a person with a belt to make them believe, God allows men to make their own choice. This is why men are responsible when they perish, because they could have chosen to be saved.

When I was a boy I used to like to watch lightening but I noticed that although sheet lightening was pretty it hit nothing but just lit up the sky. However, forked lightening always hit something.

Nice story, but scripture does not support two different types of calls. You cannot possibly show this from scripture.

You are confusing the sheet lightening with forked lightening and you are confusing a johnny call to get out of bed with a personal belt call. You are confusing them because you deny one exists when in fact the scriptures clearly teach the existence of the effectual call.

No, you are reading Reformed doctrine into scripture where it is not shown. You cannot possibly show that there are two calls, a powerless general call, and a powerful effectual call. This is never shown in scripture.

God's word is always powerful and can pierce the heart, but men have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

These men were powerfully affected by God's word, they were cut to the heart. But instead of submitting to God they became more stubborn and obstinate, they became angry and gnashed their teeth. They dragged Stephen outside the city and stoned him.

The word of God had a powerful effect on these men, but they rebelled all the more. Men have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

If the Holy Spirit was not pulling and tugging at these men's hearts they could not be said to be resisting the Holy Ghost. A fish that is not hooked has no need to resist the fisherman, it is the fish that is hooked and being drawn in that fights and resists.

Irresistible Grace is false doctrine.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Which means it's under my jurisdiction.

Pointed out that this thread has basically become a Calvinist/Arminian debate and so it is moved, as is policy.