The Elect and the Gospel

[absturzen]

"We do not believe all the elect will hear the Gospel."

Old School is right. This is the tradition PB belief. And the traditional "Calvinistic" belief.

We know that we are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-10). We also know that is no other means of salvation except through Christ(Acts 4:12). Within the Baptist ranks, both free will and sovereign grace sides should agree on this. (can't speak for other denoms)


One can not biblically say that infants that die are saved if they have excluded election.

Yes, the bible said David said "this". But it was said about his child and not children in general.

There is also room for debate that the statement itself was a historic account rather that prophetic or inspired statement such as the Psalms of David are.

There are a lot of "hints" throughout the bible such as David's statement or Jesus' love for children or Jesus referencing the saints as children or little ones.

Another hint is Abraham questioning God asking, "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

But, again, there is nothing in the bible that outright states that infants that die are saved.

But What about Election. God's Will, God's Decree, God's Sovereignty.

Those that uphold the doctrines of Grace, We can firmly state that ALL God's Elect will be saved regardless of any situation.

I personally can say with Christian liberty, that I believe young children that die are elect therefore saved. I can say that as a personal belief because of the hints AND most importantly, I know that all God's elect will be saved.

Steve

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some Christians believe that if people never hear the Gospel then they get a free pass to Heaven. There backing for this view comes out of John 15:22 & 25. 'If I had not come and spoken to them, {said Jesus} they had not had sin; but now they have no cloke for their sin. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin; but now have they both seen and hated both me and My Father.'

I have always wondered if this is a true understanding of this passage. I, at this point, haven't made a decision as to whether this is a correct interpretation of what Jesus really means.

The other question is how does God deal with there blatent Adamic nature transmitted to each human being. How is this sin expunged and or taken away before entering Heaven.

Again, I want to say that people seldom talk about this verse. Do any of you who post have any ideas about what Jesus really meant? 'If I had not spoken unto them, they would have had NO SIN.'

 

[absturzen]

Hey Ray,

I will give it a shot...

I am guessing that John 15:22 is dealing directly with the sin of unbelief. They had no excuse since they were presented with the Gospel. Therefore they were guilty of unbelief.

Now people have used that same method with Romans 4:15,

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

BUT that is isn't a loophole because of Romans 2:12-15

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

So certain laws are in our still in our hearts which we are aware of through conscience and guilt. Which makes us without excuse bfore God.

Steve

[ March 10, 2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Are there people on the board who think that it is possible to get to Heaven without receiving Christ as personal Savior? {John 1:12} What I am saying is can an adult sinner get to Heaven without believing and trusting in Jesus?

 

[Yelsew]

Didn't Jesus give some leeway here? Didn't he say often that if you believe in me you believe in the Father, the one who sent me? And again If you believe in the father Believe also in me for I and the father are one? Therefore, it is possible to believe in God the Father so long as you are willing to do as the Father says, which is keeping ALL OF THE LAW. And the Work of the Father is that you believe in his Only Begotten Son, who is the Atonement for the Sins of the world.

So if you cannot keep all of the law, which is true if you break even one of them, then you sin. If you sin you need Atonement for your sins, since Jesus blood was shed on the Cross to be the atonement for all the sins of the world, it is only right that you accomplish the Father's work which is belief in His only Begotten Son for your atonement.

Now who can do that? Whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish (because of sin), but have everlasting life.

So we need to end the bickering about something called "the elect", and hit the fields in search of the "Whosoever wills". It is the Whosoever wills that constitute the BRIDE OF CHRIST, and they are not all present and accounted for because we are too busy squabbling about a lot of someones called the elect that none of us know the true about!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

You said, 'Also, where man preaches the Gospel, it must be by the Spirit, or it won't be heard either.'

This above sentence is totally un-Scriptural. Why would the Gospel coming from Jesus Himself be in conflict with the third Person of the Trinity? We do not believe in or worship a schizophrenic God; and by this I mean He does not have conflicting layers within His Divine plan or within the Personality of God Himself, in relation to either His people or the lost ones.

Calvinism has tainted your minds and hearts into believing that God has biased interests and concerns with only His selected few. After John Calvin's conversion to Jesus he did not have the spiritual maturity to write his "Institutes" nor a well grounded basis in which to hone his inept theological views. This is not my problem but it apparently is your dilemma.

My respects,
Ray

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

You said, 'Also, where man preaches the Gospel, it must be by the Spirit, or it won't be heard either.'

This above sentence is totally un-Scriptural. Why would the Gospel coming from Jesus Himself be in conflict with the third Person of the Trinity? We do not believe in or worship a schizophrenic God; and by this I mean He does not have conflicting layers within His Divine plan or within the Personality of God Himself, in relation to either His people or the lost ones.

Calvinism has tainted your minds and hearts into believing that God has biased interests and concerns with only His selected few. After John Calvin's conversion to Jesus he did not have the spiritual maturity to write his "Institutes" nor a well grounded basis in which to hone his inept theological views. This is not my problem but it apparently is your dilemma.

My respects,
Ray

The conflict is not with Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, nor with God the Father, nor with the Godhead. In fact you are right, the Gospel is in full harmony with the Will and Purpose of God. You are wrong however when you suggest God does not work from His revealed Will and secret Will. Was it not the Will of God for Pharoah to let His people go? Was it not the Will of God to visit Sarah at the appointed time and cause her to conceive and bear Isaac? What of the Will involved in the choosing of Jacob? Whose Will permitted men to 'lend' Him a hand in these situations? And how did these situations turn out because man could not wait on the Will of God to work His purpose? The Gospel is in conflict with man; when man attempts to deliver a Gospel with a source from within himself and separate from the Purpose of God, then it is not fruitful. You or I may engage in such methods and we may add great numbers to our respective churches, but it is eternity that will reveal the truth of God and those that are His. I don't know much about Calvinism tainting my mind, I was born depraved before I could ever pronounce the name John Calvin, let alone read any of his writings.

It is my iniquities that separate me from God, not the writings of Calvin or any other man. These iniquities find their source in the fall of Adam, then I, as Cain, have added to this nature.

Now I know the truth of the Gospel of the Son of God, and it is not a gospel of man. This truth teaches that in eternity past God elected according to His pleasure and to the Glory of His Grace.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Now I know the truth of the Gospel of the Son of God, and it is not a gospel of man. This truth teaches that in eternity past God elected according to His pleasure and to the Glory of His Grace.

AMEN! Preach on, Brother Dallas.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Old School;
Your post reads like you're know what you are talking about.But this statement below really bothered me;
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, I believe there are many who have been born of God's Spirit among those destitute of the Gospel who walk in a Godly way because of the law written in their hearts.
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For a person who appears very Bible learned you are assuming your own doctrine. No one ,Absolutly No one will ever be in heaven unless they accept Christ as there Savior. All who obey the law will wind up in hell for not believing in Christ. We are responsible for our own sins and with out the Savior to cover our unrighteousness we will burn.

From the time we know right from wrong. We are responsible. It's true we can't help but know there is a God, but it's our responsibility to seek him out to know of His ways. The only and I say ONLY way is through Jesus Christ. We are born in sin. There is no forgiveness with out the blood of Christ. The Law has never saved anyone.Not even Billy Graham.
Romanbear

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

In the 50's our congregation used to use the term Brother _____. Now that I use it again with you, I like the feeling attached to the term, Brother Dallas.

You feel that glory is given to God knowing that He allegedly chose us autocratically, before the foundation of the world.

From my interpretation of Scripture I believe more glory is returned to the Lord God by saying, in truth, that His love reaches out to all the lost ones. [John 3:16; I Timothy 2:4, 6; and I John 2:2; Revelation 22:17]

Particular Election blanks out the majority of sinners and perhaps gives them reason to say I am not in that elect number of fortunate ones.

 

[Frogman]

Brother Ray,

Particular election doesn't blank out anyone. Spurgeon preached once, and I paraphrase, To imagine that you should not seek an interest in Christ simply because you don't know if God has chosen you is absurd, the very fact you are seeking this interest is proof enough to your heart the Spirit is drawing you, that He is bearing witness with your spirit that you are a child of God. Further, not one of you fail to go to the dinner table for fear that God may have decreed this your last meal and by the hand of Providence you should choke, but you found your place at that table because you found yourself hungry and you left the blessing or cursing of the meal in God's sovereign hand. Above this, no husbandman refuses to pursue his plowing and planting because he knows not the purpose of God to bless or withold his crop that season, no, on the contrary, when the season is right and because you are a husbandman, you prepare your land, plant your seed and leave the harvest in the sovereign hands of God. How is it you can stand before God and say that you did not come when He bid you because you feared he may not have chosen you to have come? You cannot, again I say, the very fact that you have thirsted, you have hungered is your assurance of His calling.

No, particular election is in the hands of God, not one of His will fail to come, in your system countless numbers of God hating rebels will choose not to, or just as bad, many of the same will choose to when this choice has not been offered them, in mine, Satan has already lost the battle and the war.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

In my view, which is the Scriptural portrayal of truth, anyone can see that Hell is only for those who refuse Christ during their life time. John 3:18 b & c says, ' . . . but he who believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God.'

Hell is not for the preprogrammed non-elect who God autocratically has decided to, because of His own good pleasure to exempt from His filicity. Neither can God find glory in damning people; only Satan finds pleasure in doing this.

God made Hell for the Devil and his angels/demons. But, apparently at the Great White Throne Judgment He will cast rebellious sinners into Hell.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I should have given the Scriptural reference for my last post dated March 13 at 11:05 a.m. The reference of Matthew 25:41 should appear at the end of the last paragraph about 'the Devil and his angels/demons.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
In my view, which is the Scriptural portrayal of truth, anyone can see that Hell is only for those who refuse Christ during their life time. John 3:18 b & c says, ' . . . but he who believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God.'

Hell is not for the preprogrammed non-elect who God autocratically has decided to, because of His own good pleasure to exempt from His filicity. Neither can God find glory in damning people; only Satan finds pleasure in doing this.

God made Hell for the Devil and his angels/demons. But, apparently at the Great White Throne Judgment He will cast rebellious sinners into Hell.

You are right, your view is consistent with scripture, if you remove portions of it such as Luke 16.27-31:

"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them form the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Of course Bro. Bill in his ultra-dispensationalism will claim this scripture only for the hardended Israelite. And you in your Free-willism will side step it by saying these had the opportunity to believe, but do not disregard Abraham's answer: "...If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

It is by their will that they fail to be persuaded.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Frogman,

Note: I am not advocating free will or Arminianism. Just discussing things.

The Great White Throne Judgement is a good thinking point.

1. Who is there?
2. How did they get there? (i.e. choice, predestination...).

I do not follow your argument with Luke 16:27-31. Are you suggesting that "if they hear not Moses and the prophets" means they have made a choice or is the result of their "total depravity"?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Particular Election blanks out the non-elect, because God has willed it this way before the foundation of the world. Some people believe that God ordains some to felicity in Heaven and others the terrors and punishment of an eternal Hell.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Particular Election blanks out the non-elect,

Election in the Bible is always unto salvation. Punishment in hell is always because of sin, not due to not being one of the elect.

 

[4study]

Ken H,

Punishment in hell is always because of sin, not due to not being one of the elect.

That's rather confusing. If God elects unto salvation it would seem the non-elect are going to be punished in hell because they are not among the elect. Am I missing something?

What about the Great White Throne Judgement? Are those there "because of sin"? Is this a passive or active result?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by 4study:
Frogman,

Note: I am not advocating free will or Arminianism. Just discussing things.

The Great White Throne Judgement is a good thinking point.

1. Who is there?
2. How did they get there? (i.e. choice, predestination...).

I do not follow your argument with Luke 16:27-31. Are you suggesting that "if they hear not Moses and the prophets" means they have made a choice or is the result of their "total depravity"?

They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will.

Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Frogman,

They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will.

How can they make a choice about something they cannot even "hear"? I thought total depravity meant that human beings are "deaf and dumb" to God's Word. How does one depraved to this extent make a choice about something they are completely oblivious to?