The Elect and the Gospel

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Particular Election blanks out the non-elect, because God has willed it this way before the foundation of the world. Some people believe that God ordains some to felicity in Heaven and others the terrors and punishment of an eternal Hell.

And some people believe that -- because sin entered the world through Adam -- everyone, without exception, should go to hell, and God would be perfectly righteous and just to leave it at that. Instead, God predestined many of them to be saved.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by 4study:
Frogman,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will.

How can they make a choice about something they cannot even "hear"? I thought total depravity meant that human beings are "deaf and dumb" to God's Word. How does one depraved to this extent make a choice about something they are completely oblivious to? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Of course Bro. Bill in his ultra-dispensationalism will claim this scripture only for the hardended Israelite.

More specifically, it was meant only for the hardened Israelite named "Larry Abromowitz" who was standing next to the third apostle to the left. Therefore it is safe to say that the rest of us can disregard this passage entirely.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some one said in effect, since Adam we should all go to Hell and 'God would be perfectly righteous and just to leave it at that. Instead, God predestinated many of them to be saved.'

It is true that because we all Fell in Adam we should have gone to destruction, but because of His eternal plan that included the Cross, all those who believe will be saved and were predestinated from before the foundation of the world. Those who remain in unbelief and rebellion will not end up in Hell due to God's uncaring ways, but simply because they did not trust in Jesus for forgiveness. God deemed it all wise to predestine all who He always has known would believe in His redemptive plan for the ages.

Because of the great, great cost of the atonement for all sinners, [I John 2:2] God's righteousness and justice requires that He judge and sends all rebellious human beings to Hell because of His all-inclusive precious atonement.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 4study:
Frogman,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will.

How can they make a choice about something they cannot even "hear"? I thought total depravity meant that human beings are "deaf and dumb" to God's Word. How does one depraved to this extent make a choice about something they are completely oblivious to? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question!

</font>[/QUOTE]I never said man cannot of his will choose, he is only able to choose that to which he sees. Some do choose moral lives, yet this is not salvation. The depravity of man does not teach that he has no will, but that his will is depraved and he cannot from within this depravity choose Christ. But, instead, he must be regenerated and then his will is able to "choose" Christ.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Frogman,

I never said man cannot of his will choose, he is only able to choose that to which he sees. Some do choose moral lives, yet this is not salvation. The depravity of man does not teach that he has no will, but that his will is depraved and he cannot from within this depravity choose Christ. But, instead, he must be regenerated and then his will is able to "choose" Christ.

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the question or not but from my perspective, you didn't address my comment.

You said, "he is only able to choose that to which he sees". So let me refrase the question this way, How can they make a choice about something they cannot see ? If the totally depraved are blind, deaf, and dumb to God's Word, how are they able to make a choice with reference to it? To me, in order to make a choice about something, you need to know its there. If you're oblivious to something, you don't even know it exists. Right?

You had said, They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by 4study:
Frogman,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I never said man cannot of his will choose, he is only able to choose that to which he sees. Some do choose moral lives, yet this is not salvation. The depravity of man does not teach that he has no will, but that his will is depraved and he cannot from within this depravity choose Christ. But, instead, he must be regenerated and then his will is able to "choose" Christ.

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the question or not but from my perspective, you didn't address my comment.

You said, "he is only able to choose that to which he sees". So let me refrase the question this way, How can they make a choice about something they cannot see ? If the totally depraved are blind, deaf, and dumb to God's Word, how are they able to make a choice with reference to it? To me, in order to make a choice about something, you need to know its there. If you're oblivious to something, you don't even know it exists. Right?

You had said, They have made a choice to beleive what they want to about 'hearing' Moses and the prophets and this choice comes from the depravity of their will. </font>[/QUOTE]So a blind man must be able to see his food in order to choose to eat?

No. What is discussed here is the hunger or thirst for God. Man depraved has not this hunger, nor this thirst, he may choose to play along with family members etc. in order to get people off their backs, but he has a hunger for pleasures of the flesh, some to a greater degree than others. The point is, some are able to choose not to partake of one sin or the other, but no man is able to choose not to partake of the sin nature because he is born with it. Within this nature he establishes a heiarchy of lesser and greater sins and prides himself on not being a 'murderer, adulterer, etc. but ignores the fact that he is a drunkard or a fornicator, etc. It is this predicament that men hear the message 'accept Jesus' ask Jesus to come into your heart etc. These do these things, with out the power of God, then they have not Christ as their head and they will not have him as head of the church, thus Matt. 7; they turn again and rend you (the church). This is why we have such division in the church, such denominationalism, etc. because people are being brought in by clever entertainment means and not through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This tears the church apart.

Man cannot see the greater choice which is God through Christ, though he is duped into thinking he has made that choice, the truth is he has glorified himself by enacting from his depraved will a position of sonship which he does not possess.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Frogman,

So a blind man must be able to see his food in order to choose to eat?

No. But he must be conscious of it, right? That's the whole point. If total depravity means humans beings are, metaphorically, blind, deaf, and dumb to God's Word, thus unconscious of it, how can they make a choice with reference to it?

Your last response goes off on another tangent so if you don't mind, I'd like to steer things back to the question regarding those at the Great White Throne Judgement.

You said they made a choice. And I ask, how can they make a choice about "hearing Moses and the prophtes" if they are unconscious of their Words?

 

[Frogman]

Here is where we differ, I think. What makes him (the blind, dead, depraved man), conscious of his need? The Holy Spirit. It does not come from his will but from the Will of God that he learns his need.

God Bless. Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 4study:
What about the Great White Throne Judgement? Are those there "because of sin"? Is this a passive or active result?

Yes, those at the Great White Throne are there because of sin. Without trusting in the finished work of Christ alone those in this scene are forced to rely on their works to save them and no one can be saved by works because 1)they do not always perform good works and 2)even their best works are tainted by their sin nature.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Some one said in effect, since Adam we should all go to Hell and 'God would be perfectly righteous and just to leave it at that. Instead, God predestinated many of them to be saved.'

It is true that because we all Fell in Adam we should have gone to destruction,

If you admit this much, then you have no basis on which to claim Calvinism is unfair.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
...but because of His eternal plan that included the Cross, all those who believe will be saved and were predestinated from before the foundation of the world.

That's pretty inside-out logic, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it's true. What you have described is (as far as I understand it) Calvinism with one difference: *WHY* some believe. You say the believe of their free will, Calvinists say they believe because they were regenerated.

But either way, some people get saved, and the rest go to hell. And either way, the ones who go to hell go there for the same reasons.

OR DO THEY? I'm not sure you think so, because after you weave in and out of logic, you end up here...

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Because of the great, great cost of the atonement for all sinners, [I John 2:2] God's righteousness and justice requires that He judge and sends all rebellious human beings to Hell because of His all-inclusive precious atonement.

So many choices, so little time...which response is most suitable?

A. Are you saying God's righteousness and justice would not require that He condemn rebellious beings had He not provided atonement at great cost? Can you identify the source for this conclusion? It might help if you start by narrowing it down to the nearest galaxy.

B. Since satan and his pals are going to be tossed into the lake of fire, can you point to the atonement God provided at great cost for satan and the angels? Otherwise, by your logic, God would not be righteous or just to send them there.

C. Uh. Right. Okay, stay calm. These nice men in the white coats are going to take you to stay with your friend Mr. Bill...

D. All of the above.

E. Because ice cream has no bones.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Before the foundation of the world, God reserved unto Himself a peculiar people according to the election of grace and purposed to save them from their sins. He set His affection on them from everlasting. It was an act of free and sovereign grace. To the rest, He said, "Let them alone." He appointed them to the fruit of their doings, everlasting destruction. Is their unrighteousness with God? God forbid! God created man for His pleasure, and they exist only by His will. The Lord made all things for Himself, even the wicked. How vain and foolish to charge the Almighty with unrighteousness in disposing of His creation according to the counsel of His own will.

 

[4study]

Frogman,

I think you're misunderstanding my question. Since I'm asking about those at the Great White Throne Judgment, I'm refering to those, from the Calvinist point of view, who are not conscious of their need for God. You said those at the Great White Throne had made a choice. Again, I ask, how can they, the non-elect, make a choice regarding something they are oblivious to?

Or perhaps I'm the one misunderstanding you. If so, I apologize. I'm sincerely tyring to understand what you believe about this. It interests me.

Are you saying those at the Great White Throne Judgement are conscious of their need for God and thus have made a choice to reject Him? If you are, I would be surprised. In my mind, such a view is not consistent with TULIP.

 

[4study]

Ken H,

Without trusting in the finished work of Christ alone those in this scene are forced to rely on their works to save them and no one can be saved by works because 1)they do not always perform good works and 2)even their best works are tainted by their sin nature.

As I understand, the Total Depravity of Calvinism means human beings are completely unaware of their need for salvation. With this in mind, why would those at the Great White Throne be there as a result of being "forced to rely on their works to save them"? I would think they could care less about being saved, right? Isn't the "Totally Depraved sinner" completely indifferent to God since they can't understand or comprehend anything of Him?

Furthermore, why would a "Totally Depraved sinner" concern themselves with works anyway? Since they do not seek God, they shouldn't be doing anything to get to Him, right?

 

[4study]

Primitive Baptist,

To the rest, He said, "Let them alone." He appointed them to the fruit of their doings, everlasting destruction.

If God "let them alone", why does He continually plead with those who reject Him?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Npetreley,

If there had been no atonement everyone would have been escorted to Hell. Romans 5:17 tells us that because of Adam ' . . . death reigned by one . . . ' {spiritual death reigned on every sinner-every human being}

Christ's atonement was not paid and offered to Satan but to Almighty God so as to satisfy the Divine justice so that any sinner who believes in Jesus can one day enter His presence at death or at His coming.

Christ's satisfaction on the Cross provided reconciliation for man into the very Presence of God.

Origen (185-254} believed that our Lord paid the sin debt to Satan plus later Augustine believed this theory.

The correct view is that because of Adam, God's holiness was offended and a payment was necessary to appease and stop the wrath of God that is stored up against sinners.

Regards,

Ray

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If there had been no atonement everyone would have been escorted to Hell. Romans 5:17 tells us that because of Adam ' . . . death reigned by one . . . ' {spiritual death reigned on every sinner-every human being}

The above makes the following seem mysterious to me:

Neither can God find glory in damning people; only Satan finds pleasure in doing this.

Look at where we agree:

1. We agree everyone is destined for hell unless God takes some action.

2. We agree that God provided atonement.

3. We agree that the atonement will, in the long run, be applied to a subset of mankind. (In other words, not everyone will be saved.)

4. We agree that God foreordained (predestined) things such that He would apply His atonement to some, and not to others.

Here's where we disagree: You say that God predestined people based on His foreknowledge of who would believe. I say God predestined who would believe and who wouldn't. So it really comes down to whether or not people believe of their own free will or whether or not they believe because they are regenerated.

Given that this is our only difference, I fail to see why you seem to think that calvinism is a system where people are unfairly sent to hell. Just look at the above points of agreement and you'll see that the difference between the two systems has nothing to do with why people go to hell. We don't even disagree on that point.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist,

You stated your case for Calvinism very well. It sounds like the teaching that I listened to at Reformed Episcopal Seminary in 1967 when Dr. Rudolph was professor of Systematic Theology. I could only endure one year of his radical theology. As I clearly remember he would not even allow class discussion by way of questioning his views as learned at Westminster Theological Seminary.

There is nothing in Romans chapter nine that even hints at God keeping in bondage, at His will, the majority only to later bring them before His Great White Throne Judgment [Rev. 20:11] to send them to Hell. The sinners were judged and damned ONLY on the basis of what you find in Revelation 20:12 which says they, because of their ' . . . sinful works {which were} written in His books.'

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 4study:
As I understand, the Total Depravity of Calvinism means human beings are completely unaware of their need for salvation.

I am sorry, but perhaps I have lost the train of thought of this thread. What is your point about whether the natural man understands his need for salvation?

 

[4study]

Ken H.,

If what you said in your previous post is true, you are implying that the Totaly Depraved are somehow aware of their need for deliverance since they have been "forced to rely upon their works to save them". What does the Great White Throne Judgement have to do with deliverance?

My point is, the Totaly Depraved, if I understand the Calvinistic view correctly, should care less about deliverance. At no point in time, whether it be at the Great White Throne Judgement or some time before then, should they be involved in any concept of "deliverance".

Perhaps I've misunderstood you.