The elect chosen in Christ before the world began?

[targus]

So savedbymercy has started all these threads about "faith is a work" and being "the elect chosen in Christ before the world began"...

And I am hoping that he (but not really counting on it) or someone else can explain...

If faith is a work and to believe that you are saved by faith is a works based salvation...

How does one know that they are among the elect chosen in Christ before the world began?

Because if I am understanding savedbymercy, he is saying that you are either born saved or not - period and end of discussion.

Can anyone explain this to me because I have asked savebygrace the question at least ten times without a single response.

 

[The Biblicist]

So savedbymercy has started all these threads about "faith is a work" and being "the elect chosen in Christ before the world began"...

And I am hoping that he (but not really counting on it) or someone else can explain...

If faith is a work and to believe that you are saved by faith is a works based salvation...

How does one know that they are among the elect chosen in Christ before the world began?

Because if I am understanding savedbymercy, he is saying that you are either born saved or not - period and end of discussion.

Can anyone explain this to me because I have asked savebygrace the question at least ten times without a single response.

SBM does not distinguish between what God purposed before the world began versus execution of that purpose in time and space - "I have purposed it; I WILL DO it" - Isa. 46:11

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 clearly expounds how the elect can know they are the elect of God.

1. The gospel comes to them not merely verbal or "in word only"
2. The gospel comes in power transforming their life
3. The gospel comes in the Spirit
4. The gospel comes with much assurance
5. The gospel comes in the same manner as they observed in the life of Paul

2 Peter 1:1-10 provides another pragmatic way to check your calling and election

1. Faith was obtained - v. 1
2. There is a progressive additive growth - vv. 5-7
3. There are characteristic fruits that define that growth - vv. 5-7
4. Those lacking these characteristic fruits need to be concerned - vv. 8-9

 

[Yeshua1]

So savedbymercy has started all these threads about "faith is a work" and being "the elect chosen in Christ before the world began"...

And I am hoping that he (but not really counting on it) or someone else can explain...

If faith is a work and to believe that you are saved by faith is a works based salvation...

How does one know that they are among the elect chosen in Christ before the world began?

Because if I am understanding savedbymercy, he is saying that you are either born saved or not - period and end of discussion.

Can anyone explain this to me because I have asked savebygrace the question at least ten times without a single response.

the person elected by god to be among those saved in christ would have faith in jesus, indwelt by the Spirit, have a new nature in jesus, and have love for the bethren, reading the bible, prayer, and would have that inner witness by God that they are now saved!

Big thing woul dbe that they woukld see jesus for who he really is, and have a desire to learn more, growing up, and now the things of God would start making sense!

 

[billwald]

It is a fun topic for argument but has little practical application.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is a fun topic for argument but has little practical application.

Peter thought otherwise, as he wroote to make our election and calling from God to be real and genuine, by certain 'faith proofs!"

 

[targus]

the person elected by god to be among those saved in christ would have faith in jesus, indwelt by the Spirit, have a new nature in jesus, and have love for the bethren, reading the bible, prayer, and would have that inner witness by God that they are now saved!

Not according to savedbygrace.

I am looking for his answer.

My understanding of his belief in this area is that the elect are born already saved and don't need the "work" of faith.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Not according to savedbygrace.

I am looking for his answer.

My understanding of his belief in this area is that the elect are born already saved and don't need the "work" of faith.

I believe you have "hit the nail on the head" ...I suppose that SBM just "woke up saved" one fine day...but maybe he just doesn't realize "which" day that was?

 

[Winman]

No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time, this is shown by Paul himself.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul clearly states here that Andronicus and Junia were in Christ before him. So no one is in Christ before the foundation of the world, but placed in Christ when they believe in their lifetime.

Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly say the elect were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How can this seeming contradiction be reconciled? When we understand that the elect were chosen according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We are told in scripture that Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would not believe, therefore he also knew who would believe.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

This verse is clearly speaking of foreknowledge, and it directly tells us what this foreknowledge was, those who believe not and those who believe.

So, I believe the scriptures clearly show that God could foresee who would believe in time, and chose these persons who were "in Christ".

But nobody is saved, nobody is "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, Romans 16:7 proves that.

 

[targus]

No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time, this is shown by Paul himself.

You are preaching to the chior.

I started this discussion to try to get savedbygrace to answer my repeatedly aksed question...

How does someone know if they are among the elect?

It is relevant to his particular belief that "faith is a work" and not necessary to be saved since the elect are already saved.

SAVEBYGRACE WHERE ARE YOU?

WHY ARE YOU HIDING?

 

[Yeshua1]

No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time, this is shown by Paul himself.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul clearly states here that Andronicus and Junia were in Christ before him. So no one is in Christ before the foundation of the world, but placed in Christ when they believe in their lifetime.

Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly say the elect were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How can this seeming contradiction be reconciled? When we understand that the elect were chosen according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We are told in scripture that Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would not believe, therefore he also knew who would believe.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

This verse is clearly speaking of foreknowledge, and it directly tells us what this foreknowledge was, those who believe not and those who believe.

So, I believe the scriptures clearly show that God could foresee who would believe in time, and chose these persons who were "in Christ".

But nobody is saved, nobody is "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, Romans 16:7 proves that.

So God would be basing His election upon the will of man to accept jesus then?

 

[Wittenberger]

According to the Westminister Confessions, the elect ARE born as Christians. This is classic Calvinism. God chooses who is going to heaven AND who is going to hell. He made these decisons before the world existed. The poor sap who wasn't lucky enough to be chosen as one of the elect, has no chance whatsoever of being saved. This is the Calvinist doctrine of "Double Predestination". I like to call it "The Eternal Lottery". You just have to hope you are one of the lucky ones to get picked as the "Elect", and not one of the "Damned".

What awful theology! I do not understand how Calvinists can preach this nonsense as the Gospel of our loving Savior who very clearly states that He "so loved the world" and that he desires that "no man perishes".

Calvinism is the extreme opposite of Arminianism. Arminians believe that the verse in question really says the following: "For whom He did foreknow would make a free will decision for Him, them He did predestinate...". In the theology of the Arminians, man has to assist God in his salvation, whether it be Roman Catholics and their good works, or many Baptists who feel that God needs their free will decision to save them.

The verse in question says very clearly that God does predestine/elect those whom he will save. But the verse does not say anything about God damning other people to hell. Calvinists/Reformed Christians, however, use their human reasoning and logic to assume that if God chooses some people to heaven, then that means He predistines the rest to hell.

Nonsense! God chooses who will be saved, and MAN chooses to damn himself.

That is the literal interpretation of the Bible that Martin Luther preached. The Elect are predestined to be saved by God's divine will alone, not by their good deeds, not by their "decision for Christ". The damned end up in hell by their own choice!

a Lutheran Christian
www.LutherWasNotBornAgain.com

 

[Wittenberger]

One follow up point:

How does an Arminian (Free-Willer) know he is saved?
Answer: He can remember the exact day and moment that HE made a decision for Christ.

How does a Calvinist know he is saved?
Answer: He can look inward and see HIS faith and repentance as evidence that he is one of the Elect.

How does a Lutheran Christian know that he is saved?
Answer: Like Martin Luther, we can take out our baptismal certificate and wave it in Satan's face whenever he comes around to try and cause us to doubt our salvation. And as Martin Luther, we have full assurance of our salvation because our salvation was completely accomplished by God, by the power of HIS Word, in the waters of baptism.

"Magical" baptismal water didn't save us.
Our decision, our that of our parents, to be baptized didn't save us.
Saying a prayer, whether it be the Rosary or the Sinner's Prayer didn't save us.
Our decision to "accept Christ" did not save us.
We are saved by the power of Almighty God, and by the power of his spoken Word. Baptism is our visible proof that God keeps his Word.

My Christian friends, don't depend on your "decison for Christ", your good deeds, or your feelings to tell you whether or not you are saved. If you have followed God's command to believe, repent, and be baptized then you are saved, but it was God who did 100% of the saving, not you. He predestined you, he elected you. At some point in your life he quickens you (sometimes at baptism as an infant, sometimes as an adult who hears the Gospel for the first time) and gives you the free gifts of belief, faith, repentance, and eternal life. It's all Him, not you!

a Lutheran Christian
www.LutherWasNotBornAgain.com

 

[savedbymercy]

witten

According to the Westminister Confessions, the elect ARE born as Christians.

I did not know that ! Do you have proof that they believe that ?

Now i believe that the Elect, though not born believers, are yet born sanctified by the Blood of Christ !

Everyone Christ died for has been sanctified, or set apart by Christ's Blood Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This setting apart by the blood of Christ, ensures a later sanctification by the Spirit when it is time for them to believe the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[evangelist-7]

If faith is a work and to believe that you are saved by faith is a works based salvation...
How does one know that they are among the elect chosen in Christ before the world began?

Can anyone explain this to me because I have asked savebygrace the question at least ten times without a single response.

I will post a new thread about this ... and I hope it will help you understand the issue!
.

 

[Yeshua1]

According to the Westminister Confessions, the elect ARE born as Christians. This is classic Calvinism. God chooses who is going to heaven AND who is going to hell. He made these decisons before the world existed. The poor sap who wasn't lucky enough to be chosen as one of the elect, has no chance whatsoever of being saved. This is the Calvinist doctrine of "Double Predestination". I like to call it "The Eternal Lottery". You just have to hope you are one of the lucky ones to get picked as the "Elect", and not one of the "Damned".

What awful theology! I do not understand how Calvinists can preach this nonsense as the Gospel of our loving Savior who very clearly states that He "so loved the world" and that he desires that "no man perishes".

Calvinism is the extreme opposite of Arminianism. Arminians believe that the verse in question really says the following: "For whom He did foreknow would make a free will decision for Him, them He did predestinate...". In the theology of the Arminians, man has to assist God in his salvation, whether it be Roman Catholics and their good works, or many Baptists who feel that God needs their free will decision to save them.

The verse in question says very clearly that God does predestine/elect those whom he will save. But the verse does not say anything about God damning other people to hell. Calvinists/Reformed Christians, however, use their human reasoning and logic to assume that if God chooses some people to heaven, then that means He predistines the rest to hell.

Nonsense! God chooses who will be saved, and MAN chooses to damn himself.

That is the literal interpretation of the Bible that Martin Luther preached. The Elect are predestined to be saved by God's divine will alone, not by their good deeds, not by their "decision for Christ". The damned end up in hell by their own choice!

a Lutheran Christian
www.LutherWasNotBornAgain.com

hyper calvinism! Predestination refers to just the elected by God out sinners to receive jesus and be saved, but they still MUST place faith in jesus to affect salvation!

those lost are sinners getting their desire and wil permitted by god!

 

[Yeshua1]

One follow up point:

How does an Arminian (Free-Willer) know he is saved?
Answer: He can remember the exact day and moment that HE made a decision for Christ.

How does a Calvinist know he is saved?
Answer: He can look inward and see HIS faith and repentance as evidence that he is one of the Elect.

How does a Lutheran Christian know that he is saved?
Answer: Like Martin Luther, we can take out our baptismal certificate and wave it in Satan's face whenever he comes around to try and cause us to doubt our salvation. And as Martin Luther, we have full assurance of our salvation because our salvation was completely accomplished by God, by the power of HIS Word, in the waters of baptism.

"Magical" baptismal water didn't save us.
Our decision, our that of our parents, to be baptized didn't save us.
Saying a prayer, whether it be the Rosary or the Sinner's Prayer didn't save us.
Our decision to "accept Christ" did not save us.
We are saved by the power of Almighty God, and by the power of his spoken Word. Baptism is our visible proof that God keeps his Word.

My Christian friends, don't depend on your "decison for Christ", your good deeds, or your feelings to tell you whether or not you are saved. If you have followed God's command to believe, repent, and be baptized then you are saved, but it was God who did 100% of the saving, not you. He predestined you, he elected you. At some point in your life he quickens you (sometimes at baptism as an infant, sometimes as an adult who hears the Gospel for the first time) and gives you the free gifts of belief, faith, repentance, and eternal life. It's all Him, not you!

a Lutheran Christian
www.LutherWasNotBornAgain.com

Confess with your mouth jesus is Lord, and belive that in your heart, and you SHALL be saved!