1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, May 6, 2005.

Top Posters
Page 6 of 12
  1. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are interupting an ongoing discussion Scott, Post your question on a new topic let's see if we can arrive at agreement! </font>[/QUOTE]I asked because it is pertinent to this thread.
     
    #101 Scott J, May 13, 2005
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then RESTATE your question!
     
    #102 Wes Outwest, May 13, 2005
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    You might think so, but that is because you did not know God was giving you something he doesn't give me. Now that you know that simply little fact, you will have a hard time not sinning by boasting about that wonderful gift God gave you, but didn't give me.

    You see, if God gives you something that he does not give me, then you do indeed have something to boast about, and knowing what I know about natural man, You too would be one to do the boasting. Maybe not obnoxious boasting, but boasting just the same.

    I have no difficulty with God's grace whatever, I only have difficulty with your understanding of it.     </font>[/QUOTE]Wes don't you ever get tired of being wrong Outwest?
     
    #103 OldRegular, May 13, 2005
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well the east coast has always accused the west coast of being wrong about something. But that doesn't explain the growth of California to 33 Million people, 60% of which is tranplanted from the eastern 1/4th of the US!

    I am, by the way, a fifth generation Californian! And Yes I did live for 2 years in the military in South Carolina! Didn't find much there to make me want to stay.
     
    #104 Wes Outwest, May 13, 2005
  5. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If man's choice to believe (leading to saving faith) is the independent, first act that results in salvation and assuming that we agree that this is a good choice then how can God's granting of salvation to someone based on this choice and faith not be considered a recognition of merit?

    If one person chooses "good" and another chooses "bad" then the one who chose good deserves merit for being wiser, more intelligent, more discerning, etc, etc, right?

    If you say this is not true then please answer- why does one choose correctly? Who gets the credit for that choice?

    It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.
     
    #105 Scott J, May 13, 2005
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    God Grants Salvation to those who POSSESS faith! Not to those who know how to make good decisions! God set the condition that faith is what he looks for in man. He gives man EVERY reason to POSSESS FAITH! He GAVE man ever means of acting on those REASONS to arrive at FAITH.

    NO, God does not GIVE FAITH to man, he requires that man have it as the result of using the means provided for receiving the word of God, then forming faith in that Word that by definition is faith in the Author of that Word.
    That would be true if God judges man according to man's merit! Where in God's word does he reveal that He judges man by man's merit? Please list the scriptures that say that God is impressed with man sufficient to granting salvation based on man's merit! He does not, so it is not true.
    The choice is not what is important, the possession of the criteria for Salvation is what Determines God's Action at the appointed hour.
    That is your opinion! It is not mine!

    Faith in God is a condition of the human spirit that begins with "Belief"! Belief is a condition that begins with "Believe"! Believe may be either an active or passive human decision. One can believe without ever making a conscious decision. I would call that acceptance, which is an "either/or" or "both" situation.

    Nevertheless all of this is dependent upon knowledge of that which is related to God. None of it is based on that which has no valid explanation. God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"
     
    #106 Wes Outwest, May 13, 2005
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    I have learned to be thankful in all things!
    :D
     
    #107 OldRegular, May 13, 2005
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Wes

    You keep posting the words: God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

    Two questions:

    1. Could you please give a reference for this?

    2. What does this passage have to do with salvation if the people are already God's?
     
    #108 OldRegular, May 13, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Here it is
    2. read it you'll see.

    Why is it the people are wanting for knowledge. Those "Elected" to teach them have failed and become like them.
     
    #109 Wes Outwest, May 14, 2005
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have learned to be thankful in all things!
    :D     </font>[/QUOTE]I too am thankful in all things...including transfer to the West where I am at home.
     
    #110 Wes Outwest, May 14, 2005
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Wes

    You keep posting the words: God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

    Two questions:

    1. Could you please give a reference for this?

    2. What does this passage have to do with salvation if the people are already God's?
     
    #111 OldRegular, May 14, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hosea 4:6
    "My people perish for want of knowledge."

    "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

    Do you not agree that these two phrases mean exactly the same thing?

    Let me add some empasis from Hosea.
    PS, there are 157 appearances of "Knowledge" in scripture vs 69 for both Repentance and repent. Most of the knowledge appearances refer to Knowledge of God...that is lacking among the common ordinary Jew, who by all scripture are the "elect" peoples of the world!
     
    #112 Wes Outwest, May 14, 2005
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    PS, there are 157 appearances of "Knowledge" in scripture vs 69 for both Repentance and repent. Most of the knowledge appearances refer to Knowledge of God...that is lacking among the common ordinary Jew, who by all scripture are the "elect" peoples of the world! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

    Nothing you say above, in fact nothing you have ever said has any relevance to the Biblical truth of the doctrine of election.
     
    #113 OldRegular, May 14, 2005
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's perhaps because the Doctrine of Election is not Biblical!

    In fact, what does it mean when God says through Hosea "Come, let us return to Yahweh (God, for those who don't know). He has rent us and he will heal us, he has struck us and he will bind up our wounds"? What about the resurrection in verse 2?
    And verse 6 "For faithful love is what pleases me, not sacrifice; Knowledge of God, not burnt offerings" Does "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God", not fit with verse 6?

    It is not some mysterious regeneration, or "prevenient Grace" that saves us, it is indeed knowledge of God that brings us faith through which we are saved!

    OldRegular,
    The fact that you cannot see thruth and relavence in what I've posted, indicates just how blind you are to the truth!
     
    #114 Wes Outwest, May 15, 2005
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Wes, Outwest

    Like you I once was blind but now I see. Hopefully one day you will come to the knowledge of the truth. However, this cannot happen as long as you take pride in your superior knowledge. You claim this knowledge stimulated you by strength of your will, to dredge up out of that which Scripture states is spiritually dead, the human attribute of Saving Faith. :D [​IMG]
     
    #115 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
  16. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    The human attribute of FAITH in GOD is what God sees in humans when saving humans!

    Likewise the lack of human faith in God causes God to discard those who have no faith.

    There has never been a single human saved that lacks human faith in God!
     
    #116 Wes Outwest, May 15, 2005
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Wrong again Wes! :D

    Faith in God is given to man after man has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. "The human attribute of FAITH in GOD" is non existent. [​IMG]
     
    #117 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I guess that proves that you do not know everything!
     
    #118 Wes Outwest, May 15, 2005
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #119 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
  20. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is by definition "merit". God recognizes this good attribute in humans that did not come from him but rather from the choices and decisions of the man.

    So you acknowledge that you believe the critical element in salvation is not God's will or even His provision in Christ but rather the human choice to accept it?
     
    #120 Scott J, May 16, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 6 of 12
Loading...