The Elect --- Question 1

[Hawkins]

Only God knows who is truly saved. We as humans can only guess by one's performance at the moment. We don't know what people will do in the future, thus we can't be 100% sure if one is truly saved. God knows the future and those saved are with their names in the Lamp's Book of Life.

However, willful betrayal is an available choice for those spiritually gifted. God has given them all the signs of His existence. Their betrayal is thus unforgivable. There is a difference between how Judas betrayed Jesus and how Peter denied Jesus. Judas' is a willful betrayal.

 

[Martin]

Martin Said:
No place in the New Testament are we told that names will be or might be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Names were either in there from the foundation of the world, or they were not.

Really? How about this New Testament verse?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

==Read the verse again. Revelation 3:5 is a promise to Christians. It is not a threat to anyone. The verse says that He will not blot out the names of Christians from the Lamb's Book of Life. That is a promise, not a threat. Later in the book of Revelation we are told that names in the Lamb's Book of Life have been in there since before the foundation of the earth (Rev 13:8, 17:8). God is not erasing names from the Book. After all, if God erased names it would pose a serious problem for the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign and He does not make mistakes. Before the foundation of the world He chose His own (Eph 1:3-14) and there is no chance that His plan will fail (Rom 8:29-30).

If Jesus says he will not blot out the names of those who overcome and are clothed in white raiment, then whose names do get blotted out? The unsaved of course. But blotted out means to erase, or wash away, or scratch out. A person's name would have to originally be written in the book of life to be blotted out.

==Again, the verse does not threaten anyone with their name being erased. You are reading something into the verse that is not there. Rev. 3:5 is a promise, not a threat, to Christians. It would be like me saying to my students that if they get an "A" they will certainly not fail my class. That is a promise, not a threat. It does not mean that students who get a "B" will fail. It is a promise to those students who get an "A". Don't take a wonderful promise of God's Word and turn it into a threat.

To a non-Cal this is not a problem. Jesus died for all men, not just a few as Calvinism teaches. God is not willing any should perish. A man's name is written in the book of life until he rejects Christ.

==Nice assertion, but not a shred of evidence to back it up. Not all "Calvinists" accept the doctrine of particular redemption. While I believe in a universal atonement, I also believe 2Peter 3:9 is refering to the elect. Why? Read the verse again, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance". Peter is talking to Christians, not unbelievers (2Pet. 1:1). The point is that God is patient and not willing for any of His own to perish. He is "delaying" the consummation of all things until all of His elect have come in (Jn 6:37, etc). That, I believe, is the most natural way to understand the verse.

This verse doesn't even make sense if Calvinism is true. If Calvinism is true, then God's grace is irresisitable. Why then would God have to be longsuffering toward us? And why should he be concerned that the elect would not perish and come to repentance? If Calvinism is true, it is impossible that they would not be saved and come to repentance.

==It is impossible that they would not be saved. Jesus Himself made it very clear that "All the Father gives Me will come to Me" (Jn 6:37). His sheep Hear His voice and follow Him (Jn 10:26-27). There is no doubt in the mind of God that the elect will be saved (Rom 8:29-30). Why? Because that is how God has willed it (Eph 1:3-14).

 

[Martin]

I did not say all Jews were lost, I knew of the seven thousand who did not bow the knee to the image of Baal. And this shows what election is based upon, faith in the true God and Christ.

==Election, and faith, is based upon God's choice (Rom 9:11). Those God elects will believe (Rom 8:29-30).

No, it contradicts the unscriptural Calvinistic view of election.

==I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I said. I said that "God has not rejected Israel and He will always have a remnant from among the nation. The grafting back in of Israel will occur when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Rom 11:25-32)". My point is the section you are pointing to does not, in its context, refer to individuals. Rather it refers to the nation of Israel and gentiles as a whole.

You fail to realize that election is based on the foreknowledge of God. The very definition of foreknowledge is to know something before it takes place. (1Pet 1:2)

==You are assuming that foreknowledge means that God just passively knew who would be saved. Yet that clearly does not work in Scripture. God chose, in an active way, those who would be saved (Col 3:12, 2Thess 2:13, etc). Foreknowledge, in Romans 8:29-30, refers to God's relationship with His people. He has always known them whereas He has never known the non-elect (Matt 7:21-23). According to 1Peter 1:1-2 we are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". Peter, like Paul, is teaching that God has always known who were His. It is not a passive knowledge, it is not God looking down through time and electing those who would believe (Jn 6:37), God's foreknowledge is active (1Pet 1:20-21). It is according to His will and choice.

Calvinist's do not like this verse, but it will be in the word of God when heaven and earth pass away.

==That is a false, dangerous, and insulting over generalization. Asserting that those who disagree with you don't like a part of Scripture is beyond the pale of Christian dialogue. I view election as an "in house" debate, therefore I do not resort to such cheap argumentation. Of course 1Peter 1:1-2 is part of God's eternal Word. No Bible believing Christian, Calvinist or otherwise, would deny that. We simply disagree with your understanding of it (and visa versa).

Election is based on something God knows beforehand. I have shown several verses that shows Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe.

==You are selecting certain verses while leaving others untouched. God chose Christians based on His will, plan, purpose, and foreknowledge (Eph 1:3-14, Rom 8:29-30). That is not just "something God knows beforehand". It is an active, personal knowledge that God has of His people, His sheep (Jn 10:26-27).

If it is not faith that God foreknows, then what is this foreknowledge of God? Please provide scripture to support what you think this foreknown thing is that election is based upon.

==As I have said, the foreknowledge is the person (not faith). The Bible says that "those whom He foreknew", persons are foreknown (not faith). Faith (and repentance) is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9, 2Tim 2:25, Phil 1:29, etc) given to those who are elect (see previous). 1Peter 1:1-2 does not contradict this. Peter says that God chose believers, this is an active thing on God's part. Based on what? Foreknowledge. He does not say that it is foreknowledge of faith, repentance, or anything like that. You are reading that into the text. Want proof that foreknowledge is not just "something God knows"? Look at 1Peter 1:20. Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world", certainly you believe that there was more there than God just knowing what would happen. Foreknowledge is not a passive knowledge.

And even if you come up with something (which I doubt), it will still not do away with the fact that the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not.

==Seems like you are drawing conclusions before you read the arguments.

So faith is absolutely one of the things God foreknew from the foundation of the world. The scriptures told of Jesus being sold for thirty pieces of silver by Judas hundreds of years before it took place (Zech 11:12-13).

==I'm not sure the latter proves the former (or what the logical/Biblical link is). Mainly since what happened to Jesus was according to the plan of God, it was not just something God knew would happen (Acts 2:22-23, 4:23-28). Scripture does not say that God elected His people based on the fact that He knew they would believe. Scripture teaches that people believe because they are elect (Jn 10:26-27).

I have already showed you in Romans 11 that a Jew that turns from unbelief can be graffed back into their own tree.

==As I pointed out, the passage you refer to does not speak of individuals but of the nation of Israel as a whole (Rom 11:22-29).

So, it is not my human point of view, the word of God says this directly. The reason it does not make sense to you is that your mind has been trained to think one way only.

==Since you don't know me from Adam, I think that is rather bold statement.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Those are God's words, not mine.

==Nobody denies that. I assert that you are taking those words out of context (ie...that you are ignoring what Paul is talking about).

And when the scriptures say that believers were given to Jesus, this is also God's foreknowledge being shown.

==Of course John 6:37-39 does not say that.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

One of Calvinism's favorite verses. But the problem is, Calvinist's stop just one verse short. If you read the very next verse, all these other verses are explained and made clear.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

There is the answer to all the preceding verses shown. Every one that comes to Christ must have been taught of God.

==The quote from Isaiah 54:13 is applied to who in this verse? "Everyone who has heard and learned of the Father" (vs 45). It does not refer to all men generically.

Now, how does a man hear and learn from the Father? The scriptures of course. It is the word of God. And who provided the word of God? God the Father of course. So, without the word of God, the scriptures, no man could come to Jesus.

==I don't disagree, I agree (to that point).

So, this is why we are said to be given of the Father. And what did our Father know? He knew who would believe his scriptures. These are his people, his sheep, the elect.

==Nothing in John 6:37-47 (etc) says anything like that at all. In fact, the section seems to refute your entire argument. It is the Father who draws and it is the Father who teaches (Jn 6:37, 45). Apart from the Father's drawing and teaching no man/woman can/will come to Christ (Jn 6:44). So it is God who is the first actor, not man. Nothing in this section of Scripture implies that God simply knew they would believe (come to Him) and elected them based on that. In fact, it directly says that such a thing cannot happen (Jn 6:44). Why? Because nobody can/will believe unless/until they are drawn/taught by the Father.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

You are Jesus's sheep because you hear his voice (the scriptures). And notice Jesus knows these people. This is his foreknowledge.

==Wrong. Jesus said we hear His voice and follow Him because we are His sheep (Jn 10:26-27). You must read verse 26 with 27.

In summary, when I compare your arguments to the Word of God I find none of your arguments convincing. I understand what you are saying, and I see your point(s), but I just don't think that Scripture agrees with your position. I'm not saying that I, or any mortal, has all the answers on the subject of election/foreknowledge, etc. However I don't see how what we do know agrees with your points.

 

[Tom Butler]

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Winman, please permit me to offer a correction. The word is g-r-a-f-t-e-d. I do this in memory of our beloved Language Cop, Ed Sutton, who recently went home to the Lord.

 

[TomMann]

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55:11

Of the volumes of scripture that fill my mind, from the declaration of his holiness, righteousness, and sovereignty, this single scripture brings it all together for me. God's word always, and I mean always, accomplishes that which he pleases. He chooses and rejects. He kills and makes alive. He wounds and heals. All in all, he rules according to his will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. None can stay his hand or say unto him what doeth thou? Yet some would say this ends at the individual's salvation by which man is given the ability to thwart God's will, desire, and/or decree. If one spends eternity in splendor with fellowship with Holy God it is because God's word was sent forth for that purpose. If another spends eternity separated from God, it is for the same purpose, to accomplished the thing he sent it out to do. The word of God divides. It divides sheep from goats. The same sermon that was proposed to bring one to conviction and repentance will harden the heart of another. How many pastors/witnesses of the Gospel realize their job is to separate the two, to bring life and to bring death.

For those who claim that all names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, how do you reconcile "Rev 17.........those "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". We are all at God's mercy and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion, and whom he wills, he hardens. I daily thank God for his tender mercies shown towards me a sinner who deserves his wrath but was spared by his purpose to bring glory to his name by showing me compassion and mercy. In Christ Jesus by his unknowing and undeserved choice of me before the foundations of the world.

 

[Allan]

Winman, please permit me to offer a correction. The word is g-r-a-f-t-e-d. I do this in memory of our beloved Language Cop, Ed Sutton, who recently went home to the Lord.

I didn't know THIS. When did this happen?
Man, I will miss him greatly on here.

 

[webdog]

I didn't know THIS. When did this happen?
Man, I will miss him greatly on here.

Last month...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=62563

His cancer returned this past summer..
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=61324

 

[Martin]

Ed Sutton, who recently went home to the Lord.

==Like Allan, I was not aware of Brother Ed's passing. I'm sorry I missed the announcement but I have been off the board for much of the summer and fall. May the Lord bless his family and friends. He is greatly missed.

 

[Winman]

Martin said:

==Election, and faith, is based upon God's choice (Rom 9:11). Those God elects will believe (Rom 8:29-30).

Amazing, you quote the very verse that proves you wrong. What does Romans 9:11 say?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Election is not according to works, it is according to those that are called. This calling is speaking of faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. It is something God knew beforehand that determines who he elects or chooses. You can argue about what this foreknown thing is, but it is shown that God knows who will believe and who will not.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

And only believers are known to God.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

1 Cor 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

If you are not a believer, then God never knows you.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, only those who believe are known to God. And Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe. And of course only those who believe are the elect.

I believe the forknowledge of God that determines who is elected is those who will believe. He does not know the unbeliever.

And those who do not believe today can believe tomorrow.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And graffed is the proper spelling, not grafted.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said in John 10:5 speaking of His sheep "But they will NEVER follow a stranger; in FACT, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." :jesus:

 

[Winman]

And if God elects us or chooses us before the foundation of the world, then why do the scriptures tell a man to make his calling and election sure? If Calvinism is true, man has no say whatsoever in election.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If Calvinsim is true, how can I possibly make my election sure? You and I are powerless to make our election sure if Calvinism is true.

For non-Cals this verse is not a problem. A non-Cal can examine himself and make sure he is trusting on Christ alone for salvation.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Paul said he knew whom he had believed on, and on whom he had committed himself. Calvinists would call Paul a heretic, because he said he committed himself to Christ. He had no problem saying he participated in his salvation.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How do I know I am saved? Because I know that I came to Christ in my heart and trusted him, I called upon him, I committed my soul to him, I believed on him. And I can remember the day I did so. And I am still depending and trusting on Christ to save me.

2 Cor 5:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

A non-Cal can know if he has committed himself to Christ and is trusting him alone to save him, just as Paul knew.

I would like to see how Calvinists answer this verse.

 

[Tom Butler]

And graffed is the proper spelling, not grafted.

Turns out that you are right. I have not found it used in any version of Romans 11:23. But Webster's 1913 lists it as a synonym for graft.

 

[Amy.G]

Turns out that you are right. I have not found it used in any version of Romans 11:23. But Webster's 1913 lists it as a synonym for graft.

I looked it up and it's spelled "graff" in my KJV, but in my husband's KJV it's spelled "graft". Interesting.

 

[OldRegular]

And if God elects us or chooses us before the foundation of the world, then why do the scriptures tell a man to make his calling and election sure? If Calvinism is true, man has no say whatsoever in election.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If Calvinsim is true, how can I possibly make my election sure? You and I are powerless to make our election sure if Calvinism is true.

First, Winman, you are taking the verse completely out of context but that is a bad habit of yours.

I have always, at least in my recent memory, interpreted this passage to mean that our lifestyle is to reflect the gracious work of Salvation that the Holy Spirit has wrought in the elect. John Gill takes a similar approach in his interpretation of this passage. Of course I realize that is meaningless to you but perhaps not to others.

Consider the way Peter starts this letter:

2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Notice that Peter is writing to them that have OBTAINED like precious faith. Now what does obtained mean? Obtained means "to come into possession of". Now if you come into possession of something it is obviously something that you did not previously possess. I would suggest that this faith is the gift of GOD to those who have been regenerated as taught in Ephesians 2:1-8.

Now consider the remainder of this passage that you chose to ignore:

2 Peter 1:2-11
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.[/i]

Verse 2 is a continuation of the salutation. Notice particular verses 3 & 4. Here Peter is talking about the additional gifts of the Holy Spirit to those He has given the gift of Faith. In verses 5-7 Peter tells those things that the redeemed is to add to the gift of faith. The Apostle Paul expresses a similar thought in Romans 5:1-5. In verses 8 & 9 Peter contrasts the condition of those who follow his admonition and those who don't.

Having given these instructions Peter then makes the statement you so eloquently misinterpret: give diligence to make your calling and election sure. You would do well to recall the words of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:10, following his description of regeneration, or the new birth, as an act of the Holy Spirit: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Since God elected some to Salvation in Jesus Christ, since Jesus Christ died for the elect, since the Holy Spirit applied the work of Jesus Christ to the elect; it follows that we are the workmanship of the Triune God and we are to do as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.[Matthew 5:16] So you see Winman all Peter is telling us is to be obedient to the words of Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Paul said he knew whom he had believed on, and on whom he had committed himself. Calvinists would call Paul a heretic, because he said he committed himself to Christ. He had no problem saying he participated in his salvation.

Winman, I believe in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation. If it were not for the fact that GOD chose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ no one would be saved. Furthermore, I consider the above passage of Scripture to be one of my favorite. Your statement: "Calvinists would call Paul a heretic, because he said he committed himself to Christ." is asinine and trivializes any comments that you have to make.

It is my belief that Faith and doubt are opposite sides of the same coin. When Jesus Christ came down from the Mount of Transfiguration and healed the boy the following occurred: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. [Mark 9:24]

In my years as a Child of God I have only met one person who said that he had never had any doubts about his salvation. It is the regeneration by the Holy Spirit and the gift of faith that overcomes doubt. However, I believe that all Christians are subject to commit sin. From my own experience I ask myself: Would a Child of GOD do such or think such? It is at times like these that I recall that Scripture: I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How do I know I am saved? Because I know that I came to Christ in my heart and trusted him, I called upon him, I committed my soul to him, I believed on him. And I can remember the day I did so. And I am still depending and trusting on Christ to save me.

Winman, the above passage is applicable to all who are saved. What gives you the idea that it is reserved for Arninians? Also you give your testimony. The Calvinist, as you like to call them, would simply respond by saying that you were exercizing the gift of faith that the Holy Spirit gave you after He New Birthed you; and correctly so.

2 Cor 5:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

A non-Cal can know if he has committed himself to Christ and is trusting him alone to save him, just as Paul knew.

I would like to see how Calvinists answer this verse.

I would answer it just as I responded to the passage you posted from Timothy: I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day

See, Winman, you have learned how one answers that verse who believes that if it were not for the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation no one could be saved !

 

[The Archangel]

Paul said he knew whom he had believed on, and on whom he had committed himself. Calvinists would call Paul a heretic, because he said he committed himself to Christ. He had no problem saying he participated in his salvation.

This is perhaps one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

For the umpteenth time--CALVINISTS BELIEVE IN ACTIVELY BELIEVING IN CHRIST!

Winman, what you are trying to do is besmirch Calvinists by posting untruth or misinformation. You have been lovingly corrected many times and you blatantly ignore the correction.

Furthermore, if you are suggesting that Calvinists don't agree with Paul on salvation--which you have suggested--then you are saying that Calvinists are not saved. YOU MUST STOP THIS.

At the very least--because we are, in fact, Christians just as you are--you owe us to faithfully represent our position, even if you disagree with it.

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS. Happy Thanksgiving

 

[AresMan]

For the umpteenth time--CALVINISTS BELIEVE IN ACTIVELY BELIEVING IN CHRIST!

Tell me about it. This false argument is like a broken record.

 

[AresMan]

Winman, I believe in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation. If it were not for the fact that GOD chose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ no one would be saved.

And notice that he, nor anyone else addressed the bulk of my arguments and Scriptures in posts #39 and #40.

 

[Martin]

And if God elects us or chooses us before the foundation of the world,

=="If"? There is no "if" there. The Scriptures directly tell us that "God elects us or chooses us before the foundation of the world". How can you say "if"?

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the priase of the glory of His grace..." Eph 1:4-6

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for slavation through sanctification by the spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2Thess. 2:13-14

We could also look at verses like Romans 8:29-30, Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 (etc).

then why do the scriptures tell a man to make his calling and election sure? If Calvinism is true, man has no say whatsoever in election.

==That is a total misrepresentation of Calvinism. First, 2Peter 1:10-11 is about assurance or making sure one is saved (elect). Second, Calvinism teaches that a man must believe in order to be saved (Jn 3:14-16). We believe that those who believe show, by their faith, that they are among the elect. Man does have a role to plan. A man must repent and turn to Christ in faith in order to be saved. The elect will do this while the non-elect will not (Jn 10:26-27).

For non-Cals this verse is not a problem. A non-Cal can examine himself and make sure he is trusting on Christ alone for salvation.

(quote 2Tim 1:12)

Paul said he knew whom he had believed on, and on whom he had committed himself. Calvinists would call Paul a heretic

==That (bold) is untrue. Are you able to have a Christian discussion without making false accusations? I think part of your problem is you don't know as much about Calvinism as you think you do. Your statements show a gross misunderstanding/ignorance of the teaching. It is fine that you disagree, but you should at least try to understand what Calvinists believe before you try to debate/discuss the issue. Calvinists believe in assurance of salvation and the necessity to examine oneself to make sure one is truly in the faith. That you don't know this shows your lack of understanding on this issue.

 

[Martin]

Amazing, you quote the very verse that proves you wrong. What does Romans 9:11 say?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Election is not according to works, it is according to those that are called. This calling is speaking of faith.

==I never said it was based on works. If you go back and examine what I said, and why I said it, you would see that my point in quoting Romans 9:11 was to show that "Election, and faith, is based upon God's choice" and not upon our doing.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. It is something God knew beforehand that determines who he elects or chooses. You can argue about what this foreknown thing is, but it is shown that God knows who will believe and who will not.

==Since I have dealt with that assertion and since you are simply re-asserting your position without answering my statements, I can add nothing more at this point. Either you are going to have a discussion or not. This is not a speech, it is a discussion. That means you have to engage what others say. You have not engaged my points on the issue of foreknowledge. I think I showed, from Scripture, that foreknowledge is not passive (as you assert).

 

[Winman]

==I never said it was based on works. If you go back and examine what I said, and why I said it, you would see that my point in quoting Romans 9:11 was to show that "Election, and faith, is based upon God's choice" and not upon our doing.

==Since I have dealt with that assertion and since you are simply re-asserting your position without answering my statements, I can add nothing more at this point. Either you are going to have a discussion or not. This is not a speech, it is a discussion. That means you have to engage what others say. You have not engaged my points on the issue of foreknowledge. I think I showed, from Scripture, that foreknowledge is not passive (as you assert).

I am not asserting that election is based on God's foreknowledge, that is what the scriptures say, read for yourself.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now, you can say whatever you want, the scriptures say that election is based (according) to the foreknowledge of God the Father. Anyone who is chosen, who is the elect, was chosen because of something God knew from the beginning, as he knows all things, and always has. And it is shown that those who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and have been sprinkled with the blood of Christ were chosen. You must believe in Christ to be the elect.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is a very similar verse that shows he hath chosen us "in him" before the foundation of the world.

Now, was I "in him" before the foundation of the world? No. I was not even born, I did not exist. But God in his foreknowledge can see down through all time. He saw that I would trust Christ. And so I was chosen, I was elect.

But my election was based on his foreknowledge of who would believe and who would not. I have already shown you numerous times that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not. So you cannot deny that God has foreknowledge of who will believe, it is clearly shown in scripture.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

So, deny if you will, but Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe or not. This is the very definition of foreknowledge, to know something before it occurs, so the foreknowledge of God is absolutely shown here.

Now, if you want to argue that it was something other than faith or belief that God knew, you could do so. But you cannot deny that God foreknew who would believe.

But God does not know you until you believe on Christ. If I am an unbeliever today, God does not know me. But if I believe tomorrow, then he does.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This verse shows that a person is not known of God until he believes. It is very important to note that the verse starts with the words "But now". If you are not saved, you are not known to God in a personal sense.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because someone thinks they are saved, does not mean they are. These folks thought they were, but Jesus said he never knew them. Note that they claimed works as the basis of their salvation. You can do all the good works you want, but if you do not personally trust Christ as your saviour you will be lost.

And this is shown elsewhere.

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

In this parable, the oil represents the Holy Spirit. Five virgins were wise and took oil with their lamps, five were foolish and took no oil. It is important to note that neither God or anyone else gave them this oil, and that they were held completely responsible for having this oil themselves.

When the bridegroom came the five wise virgins had oil and so their lamps lit. But the foolish virgins had no oil and so their lamps went out. The wise virgins would not give their oil to the foolish virgins, so they had to rush off to buy oil. Again, note that they were responsible for obtaining this oil, it was not given to them by someone else.

But while they were away the bridegroom came and the five wise virgins went into the marriage and the doors were shut.

When the foolish virgins returned, they were not allowed in, and the Lord said, "I know you not".

So, you have to be saved, you have to have the Holy Spirit to be known to God. But when you do receive Christ and are known to God, he then also knows you in his foreknowledge. For Jesus knows who will believe and who will not beforehand.

Calvinists cannot seem to grasp foreknowledge. God does not determine who will be saved and who will not. But God knows who will be saved or not. God knows all things that will happen in the future right now.

God chooses or elects those whom he knows will believe on his Son Jesus. This is not hard to understand.

But a person who is an unbeliever today and is the non-elect today, can believe tomorrow and be the elect. This is exactly what the scriptures are explaining in Romans.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

This verse shows election is based on faith. Those who do not believe are broken off, those who stand do so by faith.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Those who turn from unbelief can be graffed into this natural olive tree. This is God's chosen, his elect.