Oh, I never said that other versions weren't useful. Your examples are exactly the reason! I just was making the point that people seem to think the KJV should just be discarded/retired/made obsolete because some people have difficulty with it. Your comment about education being different is very true. I work in a position where I interview for new hires. Reading through the resumes from college graduates makes me wonder how they ever got through junior high, let alone graduated from a college! Most of them can barely spell their own names!
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The End of the NIV84?
- Thread starter RG2
- Start date
Oh, I never said that other versions weren't useful. Your examples are exactly the reason! I just was making the point that people seem to think the KJV should just be discarded/retired/made obsolete because some people have difficulty with it. Your comment about education being different is very true. I work in a position where I interview for new hires. Reading through the resumes from college graduates makes me wonder how they ever got through junior high, let alone graduated from a college! Most of them can barely spell their own names!
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Subjective Opinions
You are of course entitled to your opinion...I just respectfully differ with you. Personally, I am completely comfortable with my KJV and even more completely UNcomfortable with the way the MV's I have read "feel" in their reading. The really funny thing is that English was one of my WORST subjects when I was in school....made it all the way through 12 years of public education with barely passing grades. Go figure. You'd think I'd be looking for the simplest "reading" on anything I picked up. I personally think it is nothing short of a MIRACLE of GOD that I can read anything more complex than a comic book! Yes...the KJV has been updated quite a bit since 1611 but from what I can tell, most if not all of the updating was to correct mis-spellings and typos or to update the archaic spellings of the old english wording. The newer bibles make many alterations in the actual TEXT and in some cases even delete portions of it (see the following link:The World's Fastest Bible Memory Plan)or "refute" some portions with underlying footnotes). Like I have always said...there is nothing in a KJV that cannot be cleared up by seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a good dictionary, and a Strong's concordance. Of course...if I had to do without any of those I'd obviously ditch the dictionary and the concordance. Just because our public educational systems have been degraded so severely that people don't understand GOOD ENGLISH (or even know how to read at all)should NEVER mean we should attempt to bring our Bibles in line with our degraded language skills. We must always seek the high ground in the body of Christ and teach and disciple those we win.:thumbs:
Bro.Greg:saint:
You are of course entitled to your opinion...I just respectfully differ with you. Personally, I am completely comfortable with my KJV and even more completely UNcomfortable with the way the MV's I have read "feel" in their reading. The really funny thing is that English was one of my WORST subjects when I was in school....made it all the way through 12 years of public education with barely passing grades. Go figure. You'd think I'd be looking for the simplest "reading" on anything I picked up. I personally think it is nothing short of a MIRACLE of GOD that I can read anything more complex than a comic book! Yes...the KJV has been updated quite a bit since 1611 but from what I can tell, most if not all of the updating was to correct mis-spellings and typos or to update the archaic spellings of the old english wording. The newer bibles make many alterations in the actual TEXT and in some cases even delete portions of it (see the following link:The World's Fastest Bible Memory Plan)or "refute" some portions with underlying footnotes). Like I have always said...there is nothing in a KJV that cannot be cleared up by seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a good dictionary, and a Strong's concordance. Of course...if I had to do without any of those I'd obviously ditch the dictionary and the concordance. Just because our public educational systems have been degraded so severely that people don't understand GOOD ENGLISH (or even know how to read at all)should NEVER mean we should attempt to bring our Bibles in line with our degraded language skills. We must always seek the high ground in the body of Christ and teach and disciple those we win.:thumbs:
Bro.Greg:saint:
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Your Opinion...
And there's the "rub".....! There is nothing wrong with either the language OR the scholarship of the KJV. You are a product (or maybe a victim) of the version of the manuscript evidence/scholarship you have chosen to either accept through honest study OR by swallowing what you have been told.
Of course, to be both fair and honest, you could quite possibly say the same thing about me. I came FROM the MV's To where I am at now in my convictions. I can't say for sure (you'd have to enlighten me) but I'd be willing to bet that you traveled the opposite direction....from the KJV TO the MVs and an acceptance of them. It leaves most of us at somewhat of an impasse. I will also mention that there is an element of "applied logic" that partially supports what I believe. God is perfect and without error. Therefore His Inspired, Inerrant, Preserved Word must be "perfect" as well. That is the basic "applied logic" that must accompany His Word. It is a "supernatural" matter with a "supernatural" Book. I don't need ANYBODY to agree with me except God. It is ONLY His good pleasure that I seek. His opinion is all that matters in the final analysis. I know there are many that would agree with me...and equally as many who wouldn't.:flower:
Bro.Greg:saint:
And there's the "rub".....! There is nothing wrong with either the language OR the scholarship of the KJV. You are a product (or maybe a victim) of the version of the manuscript evidence/scholarship you have chosen to either accept through honest study OR by swallowing what you have been told.
Of course, to be both fair and honest, you could quite possibly say the same thing about me. I came FROM the MV's To where I am at now in my convictions. I can't say for sure (you'd have to enlighten me) but I'd be willing to bet that you traveled the opposite direction....from the KJV TO the MVs and an acceptance of them. It leaves most of us at somewhat of an impasse. I will also mention that there is an element of "applied logic" that partially supports what I believe. God is perfect and without error. Therefore His Inspired, Inerrant, Preserved Word must be "perfect" as well. That is the basic "applied logic" that must accompany His Word. It is a "supernatural" matter with a "supernatural" Book. I don't need ANYBODY to agree with me except God. It is ONLY His good pleasure that I seek. His opinion is all that matters in the final analysis. I know there are many that would agree with me...and equally as many who wouldn't.:flower:
Bro.Greg:saint:
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humblethinker
Active Member
Stick... stuck... not much difference ;-)
Hey, whatever it takes for you to have and maintain your belief in God and the Bible, right?
Holy hades Batman! You found the originals? You can remove the wrapper of nonsense from the whole inerrant argument?
KJV isn't even the best translation from the 17th century
Do you think it is a good idea to have a Bible translation communicate in the language of the people as Tyndale,Luther and company believed,or with your take?
To have a translation in the language of the people is aGod-honoring thing. It also makes a lot of sense. What God actually intended was not to have translations use biblish and hence to confuse the reader.
The KJV has had "communication problems" for far longer than 50 years B4L. In the late 19th century it was recognized as a real weakness. that's why the Twentieth Century New Testament was published as well as a bunch of others in the early 20th century.
Remember how poorly you fared in a KJV test I gave you a few years back? You don't understand it as well as you maintain B4L.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Thanks...
Thanks B4L....It is nice to actually get some encouragement here for a change. Usually...when I see someone has replied to one of my posts in this section of the BB I "steel" myself before reading and prepare to figuratively "get my skin peeled off without the benefit of any anesthesia":laugh:. Have a nice day brother.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Thanks B4L....It is nice to actually get some encouragement here for a change. Usually...when I see someone has replied to one of my posts in this section of the BB I "steel" myself before reading and prepare to figuratively "get my skin peeled off without the benefit of any anesthesia":laugh:. Have a nice day brother.
Bro.Greg:saint:
So what would you do with the woman at our church who is in her 50s and just cannot understand the KJV no matter how hard she tries? She has a learning disability - it is not the lack of the Spirit but it is a difficulty that she has in her brain. The NIrV has proven to be a great translation for her because she can actually read it a few times and begin to understand it. Should we handicap her by forcing her to read that which she just cannot understand?
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
With Respect....
Ann....I respectfully do realize that are some people in our midst that do have some infirmities that require special attention and a more focused effort on OUR part to disciple them. Some will ALWAYS be in that catagory their entire earthly lives and will be dependant on the help of others to understand things. (Please note that I have some in mind and am PREACHING TO MYSELF as I address you here) As to this dear woman, since it is obvious by your own testimony on this Board that you believe (that at least some) Modern Versions are acceptable (UNlike myself)...I doubt that any "options" I might suggest would be acceptable to you since the leadership of your fellowship obviously does not believe that the KJV is the only acceptable English translation. However...I will try....! In this dear woman's case (and I don't personally know of the extent of her mental infirmity), I would keep encouraging her to not abandon the KJV and instead offer her as many of the well-developed and wonderful resources such as Commentaries and Bible Study Courses that are geared toward and faithful too the KJV as possible...and above all PRAY for her and (encourage her to pray as well) for the illumination of the Holy Spirit in regards to His Word. (after all..He is the Author of it!) In my mind...part of the problem is probably (and this is an admitted assumption) that she has been taught or heard that the "new" Bibles are in some way "better and more accurate". I don't believe so...and never will. I'm sure you will not agree with my assessment of this matter but I will tell you one thing....I WILL PRAY for her. If you'd care to at least share her 1st name that would be helpful. The unique and God-given opportunity to commit to care for this dear woman and assist and disciple her is a blessing that you have in front of you. I pray God will bless you as you do.
Bro.Greg:flower::saint:
Ann....I respectfully do realize that are some people in our midst that do have some infirmities that require special attention and a more focused effort on OUR part to disciple them. Some will ALWAYS be in that catagory their entire earthly lives and will be dependant on the help of others to understand things. (Please note that I have some in mind and am PREACHING TO MYSELF as I address you here) As to this dear woman, since it is obvious by your own testimony on this Board that you believe (that at least some) Modern Versions are acceptable (UNlike myself)...I doubt that any "options" I might suggest would be acceptable to you since the leadership of your fellowship obviously does not believe that the KJV is the only acceptable English translation. However...I will try....! In this dear woman's case (and I don't personally know of the extent of her mental infirmity), I would keep encouraging her to not abandon the KJV and instead offer her as many of the well-developed and wonderful resources such as Commentaries and Bible Study Courses that are geared toward and faithful too the KJV as possible...and above all PRAY for her and (encourage her to pray as well) for the illumination of the Holy Spirit in regards to His Word. (after all..He is the Author of it!) In my mind...part of the problem is probably (and this is an admitted assumption) that she has been taught or heard that the "new" Bibles are in some way "better and more accurate". I don't believe so...and never will. I'm sure you will not agree with my assessment of this matter but I will tell you one thing....I WILL PRAY for her. If you'd care to at least share her 1st name that would be helpful. The unique and God-given opportunity to commit to care for this dear woman and assist and disciple her is a blessing that you have in front of you. I pray God will bless you as you do.
Bro.Greg:flower::saint:
I actually agree with you here on that point, its just that I feel that one can translate from the original languages texts into English as the nasb/esv have done, and not get so wrapped up in this area of there being somehow a "gender bias" in the Bible!
To be honest, isn't much of this being driven by those advocating the church to quite being " against women", and free thm up to be pastors and to "involve in church?
Until this last generation, wouldn;t most know that God means all people when he said that we are now called the sons of God for example?
She actually said to me that she heard that the KJV was the best Bible and so she was trying to use it but she just couldn't understand it. You say to use commentaries and such but trust me, they would go over her head as well. Let's just say she has a "simple" mind. She's a doll who loves the Lord and is growing but she has this disability that prevents her from understanding anything above a 3rd or 4th grade level unless you explain it to her. She's an auditory learner as well but even the KJV on "tape" (she has it on an MP3) is above her understanding. But when she got the NIrV, she suddenly was excited about reading the Word and had a lot of great questions. She's even teaching her son who also has a disability.
Yes, I do! Poorly? Absolutely not! YOUR memory isn't very good because if YOU would remember I "fared" very well thank you!
Do you believe that language has changed so much in the last 30 years that two revisions of the NIV were necessary? Seriously? Are you telling me that people today will have trouble understanding the NIV1984? Really?
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
I Understand...
Ann...I am not unsympathetic to your comments and concerns but I will have to maintain my position. I just believe that God's ways don't always match our desires and ways. I sincerely believe that the ONLY real understanding that any of us can have about God and His Word is a result of the genuine illuminating work that is done in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. As you may know...I am one of those KJV Only advocates that believes that the MV's (at least) "contain" some of the words of God (and people CAN be saved after or while reading them)but don't actually meet the standard of perfection that we believe the KJV has attained in the English language IMHO. That said, I will concede that this dear lady could conceivably gain some benefit in language comprehension from reading a modern English translation. However, I do believe the parallel use of good Commentaries and Bible Study material might also garner the same benefit. My concern would be that the use of the MVs also introduce the possibility of errors as well. A "little leaven leaveth the whole lump....." As I said...I will pray for her...that I can do!
Bro.Greg:saint:
She actually said to me that she heard that the KJV was the best Bible and so she was trying to use it but she just couldn't understand it. You say to use commentaries and such but trust me, they would go over her head as well. Let's just say she has a "simple" mind. She's a doll who loves the Lord and is growing but she has this disability that prevents her from understanding anything above a 3rd or 4th grade level unless you explain it to her. She's an auditory learner as well but even the KJV on "tape" (she has it on an MP3) is above her understanding. But when she got the NIrV, she suddenly was excited about reading the Word and had a lot of great questions. She's even teaching her son who also has a disability.
Ann...I am not unsympathetic to your comments and concerns but I will have to maintain my position. I just believe that God's ways don't always match our desires and ways. I sincerely believe that the ONLY real understanding that any of us can have about God and His Word is a result of the genuine illuminating work that is done in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. As you may know...I am one of those KJV Only advocates that believes that the MV's (at least) "contain" some of the words of God (and people CAN be saved after or while reading them)but don't actually meet the standard of perfection that we believe the KJV has attained in the English language IMHO. That said, I will concede that this dear lady could conceivably gain some benefit in language comprehension from reading a modern English translation. However, I do believe the parallel use of good Commentaries and Bible Study material might also garner the same benefit. My concern would be that the use of the MVs also introduce the possibility of errors as well. A "little leaven leaveth the whole lump....." As I said...I will pray for her...that I can do!
Bro.Greg:saint:
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What errors would be introduced to this woman by using a modern version? Can you tell me where the proof of "perfection" is for the KJV?
Now, howdya KNOW the KJV hasn't ADDED or ALTERED anything? It DOES have some PROVEN goofs, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4 and "the love of money is THE root of ALL evil" in 1 Tim. 6:10, and some PROVEN ALTERATIONS, such as "God forbid" for "May it never(not)be" in sundry places.
And our language skills have NOT degraded...that's more KJVO foolishness. Our language has CHANGED, both in this nation, and in other English-speaking ones who have always used different dialects and styles from ours.
And it's GOD who causes/allows those changes, as He is the Creator of all languages. When I was a kid, "cool" and "square" gained meanings additional to their older ones here in the USA, but not in Canada or Australia. And a little later, "gnarly" gained a whole set of new meanings.
And a major change is the use of the word "homosexual". That word was not available to the AV men, but it WAS available to the makers of modern Bible translations.
Like it or not, Mr. Perry, GOD chooses to make His word available in OUR language that HE gave us to use. The KJV was targeted to the English reader of ITS time, same as the NKJV NASV, etc. are targeted toward TODAY'S English reader.
Bronconagurski
New Member
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If the 84 is really inferior then it will go away by attrition, right? They are making it go away.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
My Answer...
To Ann, and Roby and anybody else in here that is interested.....I could continue offering my opinion and what I consider is ample proof or adequate argument in defense of the position I hold but what is the point? This topic has been argued repeatedly over the years and all the details have been hashed and re-hashed (on both sides of the argument) so many times among the same group of participants that there really is no point in it. I doubt I have adequate debating skills to sway too many of you and it is certain that I am not going to change the convictions that I firmly believe God gave me about his Word. I'm sure there are many that will say that God taught me no such thing but I'm not the one who would be telling others that there are mistakes and errors in the Bible. The truth still remains that "things that are different are NOT the same"....it just is not possible. My parting shot on this will be this...if you don't think I am right then explain the link I supplied in my previous post...The World's Fastest Bible Memory Plan...This is just ONE example of such things (the NIV)....there are many more. There really is not any point in continuing this argument. We are all equally dogmatic about what we believe. By the way...the above link...I checked it out in MY copy of the NIV....it is true. I'm done...Peace ya'll.:flower: I wish none of you any ill-will.
Bro.Greg:saint: (er...ah..Mr.Perry) ( I prefer "brother" since I was saved)
To Ann, and Roby and anybody else in here that is interested.....I could continue offering my opinion and what I consider is ample proof or adequate argument in defense of the position I hold but what is the point? This topic has been argued repeatedly over the years and all the details have been hashed and re-hashed (on both sides of the argument) so many times among the same group of participants that there really is no point in it. I doubt I have adequate debating skills to sway too many of you and it is certain that I am not going to change the convictions that I firmly believe God gave me about his Word. I'm sure there are many that will say that God taught me no such thing but I'm not the one who would be telling others that there are mistakes and errors in the Bible. The truth still remains that "things that are different are NOT the same"....it just is not possible. My parting shot on this will be this...if you don't think I am right then explain the link I supplied in my previous post...The World's Fastest Bible Memory Plan...This is just ONE example of such things (the NIV)....there are many more. There really is not any point in continuing this argument. We are all equally dogmatic about what we believe. By the way...the above link...I checked it out in MY copy of the NIV....it is true. I'm done...Peace ya'll.:flower: I wish none of you any ill-will.
Bro.Greg:saint: (er...ah..Mr.Perry) ( I prefer "brother" since I was saved)
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