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The Ending of Mark

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Keith M

New Member
AVBunyan said:
My point exactly - either you take by faith what you have in your hands today or not.

We beiieve in faith that the versions we have in our hands are the word of God.

AVBunyan said:
Problem is - how can multiple and conflicting versions all be the 'word of God"?

The problem here lies in your definition of "conflicting." The various Bible versions do not contradict one another in matters that really matter - all of them present the plan of salvation perfectly as God handed it down for everyone.


AVBunyan said:
I thought if you are going to call them the "word of God" then they must be error free for God's words are error free for he is God.

Then by your own definition the KJV does not qualify as the word of God. There are errors in the KJV as well as in other English Bible versions. God's words were error-free in the originals. But all we have is mere translations of the originals. And since these various versions were translated by humans, there are errors in all of them.

AVBunyan said:
My life is simple - no Greek/Hebrew (for there are many conflicting to choose from), no multiple versions - just one book - a simple King James Bible.

Good for you! But you don't need to push your favorite Bible version as the only legitimate word of God in English because that just isn't true. The textus receptus on which the KJV is based is also compiled from various and "conflicting" manuscripts. But then since you don't pay any attention to the Greek, that won't matter to you.

The ending of Mark that is found in the KJV and in some other Bible versions may have been a part of the original autographs, but maybe it was added by some well-meaning scribe who had an incomplete manuscript. We will never know whether the ending of Mark's Gospel as recorded in any Bible version is the original until we get to heaven. But when we get to heaven we'll be so busy praising God and Jesus Christ for what they have done for us that we will not be concerned about the ending of Mark's Gospel or any other part of the Bible because we will be living in the presence of God for all eternity.
 

AVBunyan

New Member
Keith M said:
1. There are errors in the KJV as well as in other English Bible versions. God's words were error-free in the originals.

2. But you don't need to push your favorite Bible version as the only legitimate word of God in English because that just isn't true.
1. Supposed errors in a KJV come as a result by 2 reasons.
a. These folks who "find" these supposed errors often do not understand the passage or word so they assume it is an error. The average saint does not find errors they are taught there are errors in a KJV by the "enlightened" ones.
b.These same folks are often times trying to correct the KJV with faulty mansucripts from Egypt so of scourse there are discrepancies.

2. I grow weary of this type of accusation - I believe I do not push - I seek to defend, there is a difference. I do seek to warn unsuspecting saints of those in "power" (Greek/Hebrew professors, Madison Avenue marketing, etc.) who are doing the real "pushing" and promoting of this modern movement of modern and conflicting versions.

God bless
 
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franklinmonroe

Active Member
AVBunyan,

I appreciate you, brother. You have not convinced me of your position, but I still respect your commitment to what you believe is right. Thank you for presenting your position in a civilized manner.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AVBunyan said:
1. Supposed errors in a KJV come as a result by 2 reasons.
a. These folks who "find" these supposed errors often do not understand the passage or word so they assume it is an error. The average saint does not find errors they are taught there are errors in a KJV by the "enlightened" ones.
b.These same folks are often times trying to correct the KJV with faulty mansucripts from Egypt so of scourse there are discrepancies.

2. I grow weary of this type of accusation - I believe I do not push - I seek to defend, there is a difference. I do seek to warn unsuspecting saints of those in "power" (Greek/Hebrew professors, Madison Avenue marketing, etc.) who are doing the real "pushing" and promoting of this modern movement of modern and conflicting versions.

God bless

Actually, supposed errors in the KJV come because THEY ARE THERE. While they may not be outright mistranslations, they are poor renderings at the very least.

An example: "Easter" in Acts 12:4. Now before anyone reminds me that they useta use "Easter" for "Passover" back in the day, lemme remind them that the older 1599 Geneva Bible has "passover" in this passage.

I seek to warn unsuspecting saints that the KJVO myth is a totally-false, man-made false doctrine. Anyone who says the KJV or any other one version is the ONLY "official" Bible translation is depending upon a second authority to tell them what their "final authority "is.

Now, there's no prob with anyone choosing one valid version to be his only Bible by PERSONAL PREFERENCE, but there's simply no other legitimate reason for such a choice.

Can you prove with certainty that the longer ending of Mark is supposed to be there?
 
robycop3 said:
Actually, supposed errors in the KJV come because THEY ARE THERE. While they may not be outright mistranslations, they are poor renderings at the very least.
Why should I take your opinion over the KJV translators (no offence intended)? I think their credentials are better than yours. Perhaps your perception of "error" is personal bias.

robycop3 said:
An example: "Easter" in Acts 12:4. Now before anyone reminds me that they useta use "Easter" for "Passover" back in the day, lemme remind them that the older 1599 Geneva Bible has "passover" in this passage.
That is a misdirected argument. Do you assume the KJV translators didn't know what they were doing? They used the "old ecclesiastical terms" where they could. I think that was wise as it eliminated a lot of strife and confusion caused by word games (such as we have in this forum).

robycop3 said:
I seek to warn unsuspecting saints that the KJVO myth is a totally-false, man-made false doctrine. Anyone who says the KJV or any other one version is the ONLY "official" Bible translation is depending upon a second authority to tell them what their "final authority "is.
Your teaching that "any version is as good as another" could be cast in the same light. Who is making the claim that the KJV is "official?"

robycop3 said:
Now, there's no prob with anyone choosing one valid version to be his only Bible by PERSONAL PREFERENCE, but there's simply no other legitimate reason for such a choice.
No, personal preference is a poor reason to choose. The nature of the original language text base, the confidence of the reader in the translators and the common choice of a study group are just a few better reasons. The argument of "clarity" would be a much better reason than "personal preference." I doubt we would agree on what constitutes "clarity" though.


robycop3 said:
Can you prove with certainty that the longer ending of Mark is supposed to be there?
Can you prove it isn't? Did you read any of the article? It seems to be a fairly well reasoned bit of textual criticism to me.

A.F.
 
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Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AntennaFarmer said:
Did you read any of the article? It seems to be a fairly well reasoned bit of textual criticism to me.

A.F.
Hey someone read it! Thank you :thumbs:

There sure is much to digest in the paper.

I came away with the impression that if I was responsible to make the choice on whether to include it in a translation, I would...
...but would include a note, indicating some uncertainty.

Here are a few quotes I found interesting (among so many).

“Before examining the evidence that pertains to the text itself, it must be emphasized that the question of the authorship of this passage is not necessarily a question of its canonicity. In other words, when asking, (1) did Mark write this passage? and (2) is this passage inspired Scripture?, it is possible to answer "No" to the first question while still answering "Yes" to the second.” (page 198)

“Some researchers who deny that Mark wrote verses 9-20 believe that an inspired associate of Mark composed them, and on these grounds they propose that these verses, regardless of their authorship, are an inspired text which the Lord has used to instruct His church. A similar view seems to be held by Dr. Bruce Metzger, a member of the United Bible Societies’ Editorial Committee, which produced the UBS Greek New Testament.” (page 198)

The Reader's Digest Bible fully included Mark 16:9-20 as part of the text of the Gospel of Mark with no note whatsoever.” (page 198)

***********************************************************

[FONT=&quot]
HOW TO LOSE AN ENDING (from pages 242- 247)[/FONT]



Option One (Least Likely): someone in the second century intentionally removed the Long Ending because of apologetic, practical, and doctrinal motivations.

Option Two (Somewhat Unlikely): Another theory of accidental loss posits that an early copy of Mark contained a symbol to indicate the end of the Byzantine lection-reading for the second Sunday after Easter -- that is, Mark 15:43-16:8. A subsequent copyist then misunderstood this symbol to mean that the text of the entire book came to a close at that point, and therefore he did not include the rest of the text when he made copies.

Option Three (Likely): Sometime in the second century, the Long Ending was accidentally lost. The simplest method of accidental loss is as follows: the contents of the Long Ending happened to occupy the last page of an early copy of the Gospel of Mark.

Option Four (Also Likely): A professional copyist unfamiliar with the contents of Mark (and, perhaps, familiar with the forms of Greek tragedy), coming to the end of the last recto (right-hand page) of a book, might think that the next page was empty, especially if the end of v. 8 was presented as the end of a paragraph (i.e., mid-line).

Option Five (Probability Difficult to Determine): The Gospel of Mark was almost immediately incorporated into the worship-services of the church in Egypt as soon as it arrived there. A reading assigned for Easter-time ended at 16:8. Dissatisfied with the negative tone of the last sentence, an early lector composed the Short Ending and placed it in the margin of his copy. This copy was subsequently used as an exemplar by professional copyists (possibly non-Christians who were not familiar with the text). Confused by the existence of two endings, and not sure which one ought to be included, some copyists perpetuated neither ending, and some perpetuated only the Short Ending.


Option Six (Most Likely): A second-century copyist who collected Christian material assumed (having received the standard tradition of the church) that the Gospel of Mark consists of the remembrances of Peter as told to Mark. However, when reading the Gospel of Mark, he recognized the Long Ending: it was essentially a source-document which he had previously encountered, and which he did not regard as the work of Peter or Mark. He therefore marked the Long Ending as questionable. A subsequent copyist deleted the marked text. Or, he recognized the convergence of the Gospel of Mark with an earlier source known to him – a Passion Narrative – and recognized that 16:9-20 constituted a departure from the account known to him, and for this reason marked the Long Ending as questionable.
Rob
 

Keith M

New Member
AVBunyan said:
Supposed errors in a KJV come as a result by 2 reasons.

Okay, if you want 2 reasons, try these.. 1. The errors are not "supposed" as you falsely claim, and 2. the errors are there. (Really only one reason...)

AVBunyan said:
I believe I do not push - I seek to defend, there is a difference. I do seek to warn unsuspecting saints of those in "power" (Greek/Hebrew professors, Madison Avenue marketing, etc.) who are doing the real "pushing" and promoting of this modern movement of modern and conflicting versions.

Since no one is attacking the KJV then just what is it that you are defending against? It is the erroneous KJVO stance that attacks and belittles the word of God in any version that is not the KJV. And the "modern movement" that should be warned against is the KJVO myth - not the acceptance of the various legitimate translations of God's word. There have been various Bible translations down through the centuries, but the KJVO myth surfaced very recently on the time line.

Sorry for straying a bit. Back to the OP. There is no way for us to know with 100% certainty that the loinger ending of Mark's Gospel was in the original autographs. But on the other hand there is no way for us to know with 100% certainty that the longer ending wasn't in the original autographs.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
AVBunyan:
//My point exactly - either you take by faith what
you have in your hands today or not.//

Keith M: //We beiieve in faith that the versions we have
in our hands are the word of God.//

Amen, Brother Keith M -- Preach it!
The HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/
is the inerrant Written Word of God and in the language
I actually use to make my way through this world.
(Though thou must know that I usually go, one weekend a year,
to a Medieval Fair where they actually speak
Elizibathian/Jacobian English).

The 'one book God'-ites don't have the moral highground
here. It is by faith that freedom readers construe their
English Versions to be the 'written word of God'.

AVBunyan:
//Problem is - how can multiple and conflicting versions
all be the 'word of God"?//

The problem here lies in your definition of "conflicting."
The various Bible versions do not contradict one
another in matters that really matter - all of them
present the plan of salvation perfectly as God
handed it down for everyone.

I note the self-contradiction here. The KJVs
are 'multiple & conflicting versions'.

Freedom Readers believe, BY FAITH in Messiah
Jesus, that any 'seems like a conflict' passages can
be resolved by each individual priest/Christian
IF they have enough information about the matter.

I beleive that the purpose of the Baptist Board (BB)
Bulletin board (bb) Version/translation Forum
is to provide a vehicle for this discussion: what
is the real meaning of particular passages?

In that light, I think this topic should be about the
impact of these different endings of Mark
on one's theology.
 

Keith M

New Member
Ed Edwards said:
In that light, I think this topic should be about the
impact of these different endings of Mark
on one's theology.

Ed, the longer ending of Mark's Gospel speaks of baptism, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, handling snakes and drinking poison. These things, based on this passage, have been twisted out of shape by some errant groups. Some, based on this passage and despite what the rest of the NT teaches, believe that one must be baptized in water in order to be saved. Some believe that speaking in other languages miraculously still exists despite the fact that this disappeared when the NT was completed. Still others believe they can handle poisonous snakes or drink poisonous things without harm coming to them, despite what the Bible teaches about testing God.

I have to stop and question at times whether the Holy Spirit would actually lead someone to write things that would cause such confusion among NT readers. Then I read 1 Cor 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." (NKJV) The longer ending of Mark has caused much confusion, and thus the Spirit leads me to believe it was not a part of the original Gospel.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Keith M said:
Ed, the longer ending of Mark's Gospel speaks of baptism, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, handling snakes and drinking poison. These things, based on this passage, have been twisted out of shape by some errant groups. Some, based on this passage and despite what the rest of the NT teaches, believe that one must be baptized in water in order to be saved. Some believe that speaking in other languages miraculously still exists despite the fact that this disappeared when the NT was completed. Still others believe they can handle poisonous snakes or drink poisonous things without harm coming to them, despite what the Bible teaches about testing God.

I have to stop and question at times whether the Holy Spirit would actually lead someone to write things that would cause such confusion among NT readers. Then I read 1 Cor 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." (NKJV) The longer ending of Mark has caused much confusion, and thus the Spirit leads me to believe it was not a part of the original Gospel.

Why do you think there is no bold and faithful translators who can boldly delete the longer ending of Mark if they believe that Mark 16: 9-20 is not the Words of God?
Why do the versions like NIV say and only discredit Mark 16:9-20 instead of deleting it courageously? Is it because they are afraid that they cannot sell the books and lose the money if so? Then do they love money more than the Truth ? Ask all the modern version translators to delete the longer ending boldly! They are money lovers! They are not ready to martyr for the truth, but are just money makers!
Don't argue with KJV lovers! argue with money lovers!
Ask NIV why they include John 8:1-11 ( Pericope Adulturae) while they don't believe it is not a part of genuine Bible!
Ask Modern Bible versions to behave as they believe!
If they don't behave as they believe, they are hypocrites!

I mentioned there are 619 manuscripts for Mark 16 and among them 615 are majority texts 4 are minority texts.
All majority texts 615 have the longer ending, and among 4 minority texts, 2 are A and C but they have longer ending again. Only B which contains a lot of modification to satisfy Whorish Romanc Catholicism and Aleph which was the exercise copy of the monks at Sinai Monastry have no longer ending.
Do you believe all 617 manuscripts added the ending later on and only these 2 have the genuine portion of Mark ?
I wonder what have caused so many people to misunderstand this portion?

P45 might have been damaged, but there is a trace.

http://www.curtisvillechristian.org/MarkTwo.html
Is p45 ( beginning of 3c ) later than B and Aleph which date back to 4 c?

It might be interesting if anyone could post the photo of thelast chapter of Vaticanus Mark.

900-1000 A.D. Armenian manuscript has it, but says it was added by Aristion, whom Papias mentions
325-350 A.D. Vaticanus: blank space there. Vaticanus does not have any other blank spaces like this in the entire manuscript.
340-350 A.D. Sinaiticus: blank space there. However, According to www.LogosResourcePages.org/uncials.htm, you can see where this text was in Sinaiticus, but it was pumiced out (erased).
(900-1000 A.D. Armenian manuscript has it, but says it was added by Aristion, whom Papias mentions

(http://www.biblequery.org/ntmss.htm)
 
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Keith M said:
The longer ending of Mark has caused much confusion, and thus the Spirit leads me to believe it was not a part of the original Gospel.
I am confused friend. Are you speaking from reason or revelation?

To say that we don't accept a portion of scripture because someone has misused it doesn't seem to be a valid reason to me. Much Scripture has been misused in one way or another. Exempli gratia: The Roman Catholics justify the office of "Pope" by Matthew 16:18 where our Lord says "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Should we therefore delete it from the Scriptures? I think not! But look at how much confusion the misuse of that one verse has caused.

Of course, if you have a special leading from the Holy Ghost I can't argue with that. I can only comment by saying that I have not shared in that revelation.

A.F.
 

AVBunyan

New Member
Typical - because some of you do not understand the passage nor rightly divide the word of truth you procede to question the authenticity of the passage.
 
The longer ending of Mark has caused much confusion, and thus the Spirit leads me to believe it was not a part of the original Gospel.
No,not following 2Timothy 2:15(not to be found in the Alexandrian forgeries)causes the confusion.The verses are authentic.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are other reasons besides the external manuscript witness that cause believers to question whether this was part of the original gospel.

Internal evidence against inclusion includes:

(1) An abrupt and awkward connection between verses 8 and 9; noticed even in the English translations – there is no proper noun introduced when the topic changes.

(2) It is not written in Mark’s style or vocabulary.

(3) The passage is easily used to teach doctrine contrary to teachings found in other places of the N.T.

(4) Comparison/harmonization difficulties between other gospel accounts.

Concerning point #4, David Palmer attempts to strengthen his position (that the Long Ending doesn’t belong in Mark’s gospel) by pointing to a sentence in verses 12 and 13 that he says contradicts Luke’s account.

Here are the verses:

Mark 16:12,13, AV 1873

"After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them."
and the same verses in the ESV for those of us that are "modern". :saint:

“After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.

Lukes accounts records:

“And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.”
Luke 24:33-35 AV 1873

I’m not convinced that there is a contradiction.
In Mark’s account there is some bit of ambiguity but as I read it goes like this:

“They” (the two walking to Emmaus) went and told “it” (their encounter with the Lord) to “the residue” (the eleven): neither “they” (the eleven) believed “them” (the Emmaus two).

What was not believed? ….the eleven did not believe those two encountered the Lord.
But it doesn’t necessarily stand that they did not believe that the Lord had risen.

Luke’s account sees the confused disciples aware that the Lord has returned but uncertain about the form with which he returned.
The disciples could not believe that the Lord could have broken bread with the Emmaus men because they were not convinced that Jesus returned in bodily form.
…he couldn’t have broken bread with the two walking to Emmaus, could he? …spirits don’t eat.

But Jesus, to belay their fears and to establish his very real presence says, “Have ye here any meat?” And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.”
(Luke 24:41,42 AV 1873)

Rob
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It might be interesting if anyone could post the photo of the last chapter of Vaticanus Mark.
Mark's end in Vaticanus [LINK]

The last line in Mark in Vaticanus is seen in the first row of pictures on the right (Mark 16:8).

καὶ ἐξελθοῦσαι ἔφυγον ἀπὸ τοῦ μνημείου, εἶχεν γὰρ αὐτὰς τρόμος καὶ ἔκστασις· καὶ οὐδενὶ οὐδὲν εἶπαν· ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ.
Mark 16:8 NA27

Rob
 

Keith M

New Member
AVBunyan said:
Typical - because some of you do not understand the passage nor rightly divide the word of truth you procede to question the authenticity of the passage.

...and...

Anti-Alexandrian said:
No,not following 2Timothy 2:15(not to be found in the Alexandrian forgeries)causes the confusion.The verses are authentic.

Uh, guys, that is exactly what we are doing here. Thanks for your two cents, but that's all it's worth. When are you bringing out the snakes and the hemlock?

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 NKJV

We who seek to rightly divide the word of truth have no reason to be ashamed.

The longer ending of Mark's Gospel has caused much confusion. It has been the root of several false teachings. Can you offer absolutely certain proof that the longer ending of the Gospel was really a part of the original autograph? Of course you can't! But neither can anyone offer absolutely certain proof that it wasn't. We do not have the original autographs.

For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV

Faith allows us to accept many things, but faith also allows us to reject other things as not coming from God. And when a single passage causes as much confusion and false teaching as the longer ending of Mark's Gospel it is in faith that some accept this is likely not inspired writing, but rather something added by a well-meaning scribe very early in the copying process.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Deacon said:
Mark's end in Vaticanus [LINK]

The last line in Mark in Vaticanus is seen in the first row of pictures on the right (Mark 16:8).

καὶ ἐξελθοῦσαι ἔφυγον ἀπὸ τοῦ μνημείου, εἶχεν γὰρ αὐτὰς τρόμος καὶ ἔκστασις· καὶ οὐδενὶ οὐδὲν εἶπαν· ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ.
Mark 16:8 NA27

Rob

Rob,

Thanks for your Info on the Link and your quotation.
I may need some time to digest it as the interpretation of the same contexts result in different views.

I think John Burgeon dealt with this issue as well.
As for manuscripts, this might be a small overview:
http://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.html
 
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