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The enumeration of the 10 Commandments

VDMA

Member
First: There is no such person as the “blessed Virgin St. Mary” since she had at least 6 children after she gave birth to Jesus, which means she had sexual relations with her husband Joseph.

Second: The moratorium against idolatry is absolute, not just against idols of “satan””, Baal…”.

Remember, Aaron created the golden calf to be a physical representation of Yahweh.

These are clearly idols, especially that idol of Jesus on the cross: That is an idol of God, like Aaron’s golden calf, and clearly violates the commandment.

peace to you

Red herring alert

First: The topic is not about the Blessed Virgin St. Mary and all the alleged (emphasis added) “children” that protestants want to claim she had, nor was the topic about Semper Virgo (her Perpetual virginity). There’s another thread on that very topic.

Second: Perhaps you should read the Magnificat.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord,
Luk 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Luk 1:48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed…


Third: Jesus on the cross is a Christological statement, additionally it represents Christ wailing and shedding his blood on the cross for our sins.

Lo! He comes with clouds descending,
Once for favored sinners slain;
Thousand thousand saints attending,
Swell the triumph of His train:
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
God appears on earth to reign.

Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.

Crucifixes are totally appropriate and it’s not violating any of God‘s laws, etc.

Baptist have empty Crosses for a reason because they don’t believe Jesus comes to them at Holy communion.

Jesus comes to me in the Eucharist at every Divine service (Mass) and we feast on Christ for the forgiveness of sin and the strengthening and nourishment of the soul. Mankind fell by eating, man kind saved by eating, man ate from a living tree and death came, man eats the fruit from a dead tree, the cross and life comes. Where there is forgiveness of sins there is life. The medicine of immortality (Lord's Supper, sacrament of the Altar), it's potent stuff. (unrelated topic to the 10 Commandments).

To end, which I’ve already stated, the idolatry comments are just bad characters built off faulty hermeneutics and suspicion of all things Roman Catholic for the sake of be anti-catholic (that wasn’t the purpose of the reformation).
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I've read the Catholic catechism and it clearly forbids the worship of the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints and idols according to their own confessional teachings.

I would also be very careful to charge well catechized Catholics with worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, because their official doctrines forbid worship of idiots. It clearly say they are not the worship the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Now, if someone wants make the argument that Intercession of Saints can potentially lead idolatry ~ okay I would agree.

The problem with Catholic teaching is that it's all over the place. I've read Catholic literature saying that Baptists are now considered lesser brothers and our Baptism is good enough to keep us out of Hell. Then you read the Council of Trent and it is very clearly spelled out what happens to people who believe that justification is by faith alone. Let them be accursed. Show me in Catholic official pronouncements where this has been recinded. Worshiping Mary is a perfect example too. Good grief, don't you ever listen to Catholic radio on the way to work? They pray to Mary and endow her with divine attributes constantly - no matter what the catechism says. One funny note. One time on the way home from work I was listening to the Catholic apologetics guys and they said whatever you do - don't get into a scripture battle with a Baptist. So no wonder they stick to the catechism.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Red herring alert

First: The topic is not about the Blessed Virgin St. Mary and all the alleged (emphasis added) “children” that protestants want to claim she had, nor was the topic about Semper Virgo (her Perpetual virginity). There’s another thread on that very topic.

Second: Perhaps you should read the Magnificat.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord,
Luk 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Luk 1:48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed…


Third: Jesus on the cross is a Christological statement, additionally it represents Christ wailing and shedding his blood on the cross for our sins.

Lo! He comes with clouds descending,
Once for favored sinners slain;
Thousand thousand saints attending,
Swell the triumph of His train:
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
God appears on earth to reign.

Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.

Crucifixes are totally appropriate and it’s not violating any of God‘s laws, etc.

Baptist have empty Crosses for a reason because they don’t believe Jesus comes to them at Holy communion.

Jesus comes to me in the Eucharist at every Divine service (Mass) and we feast on Christ for the forgiveness of sin and the strengthening and nourishment of the soul. Mankind fell by eating, man kind saved by eating, man ate from a living tree and death came, man eats the fruit from a dead tree, the cross and life comes. Where there is forgiveness of sins there is life. The medicine of immortality (Lord's Supper, sacrament of the Altar), it's potent stuff. (unrelated topic to the 10 Commandments).

To end, which I’ve already stated, the idolatry comments are just bad characters built off faulty hermeneutics and suspicion of all things Roman Catholic for the sake of be anti-catholic (that wasn’t the purpose of the reformation).
In John 6 Jesus speaks of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He explains to His disciples that His words were spirit. He further explained the “flesh” profits nothing and that His words are life.

You deny the words of our Lord Jesus. You claim His words were literal instead of spirit. You claim the flesh gives you forgiveness and life, when Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.

Mankind are saved by God’s grace, not by eating or drinking.

The crucifix is an idol. It is a physical representation of God, the very definition of idolatry.

It is scripture that claims Mary had at least 6 children after Jesus. Baptist believe what scripture says. Mary is blessed, without doubt. She was blessed with at least 7 children. For some reason Catholics can’t stand the truth that Mary and Joseph had children after Jesus.

Jesus has completed His work and stands as a High Priest forever at the right hand of the Father in heaven. No priest saying phony magic words can compel Jesus to leave His place of glory in heaven so Catholics can eat His flesh and drink His blood.

The purpose of the reformation was to remove the man made rules and anti-biblical doctrine the Catholic Bishops had invented to consolidate power in Rome and control the people.

peace to you
 

VDMA

Member
Nope, it's because He is risen and sits on the Throne.

He as risen, He has resin indeed! Hallelujah! Of course Christ sitting on His throne Amen! Baptist have empty crosses because of a deficient understanding the two natures of Christ and most are iconoclastic.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
He as risen, He has resin indeed! Hallelujah! Of course Christ sitting on His throne Amen! Baptist have empty crosses because of a deficient understanding the two natures of Christ and most are iconoclastic.
Baptists believe scripture. Baptists believe the words of our Lord Jesus.

Catholics have been deceived into worshipping idols by calling it veneration. Catholics have been deceived into believing there is life in the flesh when Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.and that His words are life.

Catholics have been deceived by a political hierarchy that has reestablished a dead priesthood that mediates forgiveness and salvation for people when scripture we are all priest with direct access to God, through our Lord Jesus Christ with guidance of indwelling Holy Spirit.

Catholics have been deceived into believing there is forgiveness and salvation in eating and drinking bread and wine after a priest says magic words (hocus locus).

Peace to you
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
VDMA. This is your thread but regarding the original posting, I have a couple of questions. One, I live in an area with a large Catholic population and some of my friends are former or current Catholics. Of all the discussion this is the first I ever heard of the big problem of the way the 10 commandments are stated. Is there some book or forum where this is common? Also, did you say you are a practicing Lutheran? Why would you side with Roman Catholics? Are there movements again to reunite? Do Lutherans still read Luther? This is not a challenge - I would really like to know.
 

VDMA

Member
In John 6 Jesus speaks of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He explains to His disciples that His words were spirit. He further explained the “flesh” profits nothing and that His words are life.

You deny the words of our Lord Jesus. You claim His words were literal instead of spirit. You claim the flesh gives you forgiveness and life, when Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.

Mankind are saved by God’s grace, not by eating or drinking.

The crucifix is an idol. It is a physical representation of God, the very definition of idolatry.

It is scripture that claims Mary had at least 6 children after Jesus. Baptist believe what scripture says. Mary is blessed, without doubt. She was blessed with at least 7 children. For some reason Catholics can’t stand the truth that Mary and Joseph had children after Jesus.

Jesus has completed His work and stands as a High Priest forever at the right hand of the Father in heaven. No priest saying phony magic words can compel Jesus to leave His place of glory in heaven so Catholics can eat His flesh and drink His blood.

The purpose of the reformation was to remove the man made rules and anti-biblical doctrine the Catholic Bishops had invented to consolidate power in Rome and control the people.

peace to you

Right, of course mankind is saved by God’s grace, through faith. Salvation is a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit. A baptized saint lives in daily repentance and by faith, faith in Christ Jesus, which is solely the monergistic work of the Holy Spirit.

Read Exodus 12:1-14. How did the Passover meal and the blood of the lamb benefit Israel? How does the meal of Christ's body and blood benefit us?

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Peter 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed

Matthew 26:28 This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7 The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

John 6:63 Spirit. Just as fleshly bodies need spirit to have life, believers need the Holy Spirit to make them alive. The Spirit is given through Jesus’ words. the flesh is no help at all. Note that Jesus does not say “My flesh,” as in vv 51, 54–56. Jesus contrasted the sinful nature (“flesh”) with the spiritual nature to show that eternal life comes only from the Holy Spirit. The sinful flesh, which lusts for bread rather than the things of God (v 26), cannot help in spiritual matters. words … are spirit and life. The Holy Spirit, proceeding eternally from the Father and the Son (see notes, 14:26; 15:26), uses the Word of God to create faith and life in hearers."

https://ref.ly/o/lsbconcordia/6586084?length=666 via @Logos

Where do you receive forgiveness of sins?

God offers his forgiveness of sins though word (law/gospel) and sacraments (God’s word is attached to the sacraments); Holy baptism (baptismal regeneration), private confession & Holy absolution, sacrament of the Altar (Eucharist), where there is forgiveness of sin there is life. Sacramental benefits are received by faith, faith in Christ Jesus. Baptist rejection of the corporal real present boils down to Christology and their rejection of sacramental theology. Baptist don’t believe sacraments can impart faith and forgiveness despite sacred scripture teaching to the contrary, it’s merely symbolic to Baptist. They really do have a low view of Baptism and the Lord Supper.

I’m not going get into the reformation on this thread other than to say, the Baptist movement was a late development (Most of the Baptist are really tied to rebelling against the Anglican Church). The Lutheran confessions (The Book of Concord) reject the false teachings of Calvin and Zwingli. You have the magisterial Reformation then you have the Baptist which came later (radical reformation). Sacred scripture clearly teachers sacramental theology, which Baptist reject (scorched earth theology). Luther and the Lutheran reformation was a very conservative reform, which made only minor surgical adjustments (which was very little).

I would be careful to want to claim the Anabaptist. They were heterodox at best or full blown heretical sect (many were anti-trinitarian).

The Conservative Reformation and Its Theology

“The mightiest weapon which the Lutheran Reformation employed against Rome was, not Rome’s errors, but Rome’s truths.”

https://ref.ly/o/cnsrfmthl/530366?length=260


I have not further comment on the Eucharist, Mariology and alleged idolatry.

The topic was the enumeration of the 10 Commandments.

Reformed (Baptist), Anglican, Orthodox follows the same enumeration,

Jews follow a slightly different enumeration

Catholic and Lutherans have another enumeration

These enumerations should not be dogmatic and a point of heated contention.

Fake news: fictitious charges of idolatry, straw man and Red herring arguments. Thank goodness there are reasonable Baptist.
 

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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I’m not going get into the reformation on this thread other than to say, the Baptist movement was a late development (Most of the Baptist are really tied to rebelling against the Anglican Church) and the Lutheran confession reject the false teachings of Calvin and Zwingli. You have the magisterial Reformation then you have the Baptist which came later (radical reformation). Sacred scripture clearly teachers sacramental theology, which Baptist reject (scorched earth theology).

Good. You really shouldn't. I think you're getting the Anabaptist radical reformation mixed up with the Baptists that came out of the Puritans. They were totally different and Baptists who even want to for some reason connect to Anabaptism can't find a connection.

Right, of course mankind is saved by God’s grace, through faith. Salvation is a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit. A baptized saint lives in daily repentance and by faith, faith in Christ Jesus, which is solely the monergistic work of the Holy Spirit.

The above sounds an awful lot like "the false teaching of Calvin and Zwingli". Which is it, the above or "sacramental theology"?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What are some of the most important Commandments of Christ?
Love God with all your heart, mind and soul
Do for others as you would have them do for you.

Be the last of all, the servant of all, do not judge others and share all.
Consider well the people you and others have lost, the things you have not done well, and the things you long for.
Be slow to anger and drop the ego.
Love peace and be involved in helping others to make peace. Trust everyone and know they may let you down.
Strive to do the right thing. Forgive others then yourself.
Look at things from the eyes of others.
Build your castle with blameless foundations.
Do not stop doing the right thing because of others.

Footnote, many of these were taken from:
The Eight Beatitudes - List - Checklist

 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
….
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all….
With emphasis on “once for all”, not daily magic incantations.

Real idols, real rejection of the words and teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, real pollution of the truth.

I’ve had enough of the propaganda. I’ll leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
The First Commandment

You shall have no other gods.

What does this mean? We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

Way to ignore the 2nd commandment:

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
 

VDMA

Member
Good. You really shouldn't. I think you're getting the Anabaptist radical reformation mixed up with the Baptists that came out of the Puritans. They were totally different and Baptists who even want to for some reason connect to Anabaptism can't find a connection.

The above sounds an awful lot like "the false teaching of Calvin and Zwingli". Which is it, the above or "sacramental theology"?

It’s not the first time I’ve heard a Baptist claim Lutherans sound like Calvinist, we also sound like Catholics.

Confessional Lutherans reject the theology of Calvin and Zwingli. Calvinist rightly adhere to divine Monergism. Lutherans reject, the false teachings of limited atonement, double Predestination, “once saved always saved”, their views on sacraments, etc.

Yes, it was unfair to lump them in with the radical reformation. Sacramentarians (e.g. Baptist) are radical to reject historic view of sacraments. Most Baptist sadly came out of the Anglican Church. They were better off staying in one of the three flavors of Anglicanism. A lot of it was politically motivated. Hence the reason why the Baptist movement is largely an American thing. There theologically plays aligns well with the American mindset of hyper individualism. “I” made a decision for Christ, “I” got baptized as my first set of obedience, etc.

Sacred scripture teaches sacramental theology, sacraments such as for Holy baptism, Holy absolution, and Holy communion, which impart faith and forgiveness. The sacramental benefits are received by faith, faith in Christ Jesus. Lutherans adhere to a minimal of three sacraments, but allow for more (I would also say that Holy matrimony and
Ordination is a sacrament/sacramental depending how it’s defined).

May God’s grace and peace be with you.
 

VDMA

Member
With emphasis on “once for all”, not daily magic incantations.

Real idols, real rejection of the words and teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, real pollution of the truth.

I’ve had enough of the propaganda. I’ll leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

I’m sorry you feel that way, your problem is not with me, be but God’s word. Did God really say…
 

37818

Well-Known Member
“once saved always saved”
God's promise of the New Covenant, ". . . for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. . . ." -- Jeremiah 31:31-34.

So if one has that promise it amounts to "once saved always saved" because God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Furthermore if once saved one can yet be lost, then no one knows one has eternal life in this life. But that is not the case, 1 John 5:12-13, ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." (Romans 8:9.)

Jesus promised His sheep, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . ."
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
. A lot of it was politically motivated. Hence the reason why the Baptist movement is largely an American thing. There theologically plays aligns well with the American mindset of hyper individualism. “I” made a decision for Christ, “I” got baptized as my first set of obedience, etc.

I think you're right on that. A lot of the whole Reformation, the rise of the Puritans and all of it had a political component. And you're right about the American mindset of hyper individualism. I was just a little disappointed in that I always felt that Lutherans who were theologically conservative where fellow travelers but maybe there are more differences than I knew. Thanks for answering though.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
I’m sorry you feel that way, your problem is not with me, be but God’s word. Did God really say…
Strange coming from someone who ignores God’s word concerning consuming His “flesh and blood” on the one hand and direct rebellion against His commandment not to make idols of things in heaven on the other.

No, I think my problem is not with God’s word which I believe, accept, do my best to live by.

My problem is with your non-biblical doctrine.

peace to you
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Why not read it off the only scripture GOD personally wrote?

You'd think God's own writing would have earned his own place among human authors.

I had a friend change the Hebrew text to read left to right so it was easier for me to follow. But you said we should trust Gods' own words. Well hope this will do;
Exo 20:4 לֹֽ֣א H3808 shall not תַֽעֲשֶׂ֨ה־ H6213 Thou shalt not make לְךָ֥֣ H0 פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀ H6459 unto thee any graven image וְכָל־ H3605 any תְּמוּנָ֡֔ה H8544 or any likeness אֲשֶׁ֤֣ר H834 [of any thing] that בַּשָּׁמַ֣֙יִם֙ ׀ H8064 [is] in heaven מִמַּ֡֔עַל H4605 above וַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר֩ H834 of what בָּאָ֖֨רֶץ H776 or that [is] in the earth מִתַָּ֑֜חַת H8478 beneath וַאֲשֶׁ֥֣ר H834 of what בַּמַּ֖֣יִם ׀ H4325 beneath or that [is] in the water מִתַּ֥֣חַת H8478 under לָאָֽ֗רֶץ H776 under the earth

I think that just about covers everything that you could think of.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Intercession of saints and mariology was never the topic of the tread. I've read the Catholic catechism and it clearly forbids the worship of the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints and idols according to their own confessional teachings.

Speaking as confessional Lutheran we don’t practice praying through the Saints, we can pray for the dead, but we don’t pray through saints (again that’s another subject). We know that the Saints and Angels are praying for us. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

Idolatry is covered in the first commandment.

Most Baptist are iconoclasts. The “Reformed” use logical syllogisms to come to a unbiblical conclusion. They will take Exodus 20:4 to mean an absolute moratorium. There is a moratorium against false satanic worships (e.g. Baal, Golden Calf, etc.).

Lutherans, like Catholics have all kinds of statues, stain glass windows depicting Jesus, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, Holy Angels, crucifixes, etc. We genuflect and knee before the altar, etc. for a reason. It’s not idol worship. We make the sign of the cross to remind us of our baptism and that we are in the presence of a triune God. We do things like genuflect and kneel before the Altar because that’s where Christ comes to us and we feast on Christ Corporal Body and Blood (that’s another subject so leave it alone), etc. Lutherans believe things are sacred, we believe the chaliced, the altar, art works, are sacred things. It all points to Christ so speaking as a Lutheran we are not worshiping idols.

Having statues of Saints, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Holy Angels, and other sacred art is not a violations of God’s law. People are idol making factors so I guess you can make an idol out of just about anything.

I would also be very careful to charge well catechized Catholics with worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, because their official doctrines forbid worship of idiots. It clearly say they are not the worship the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Now, if someone wants make the argument that Intercession of Saints can potentially lead idolatry ~ okay I would agree. But according to their official catechism it’s not allowed. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

----
Exodus 20:2–17, Roman Catholic, Lutheran

1st) 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2nd) 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

3rd) 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; 11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

4th) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5th) 13 “You shall not kill.

6th) 14 “You shall not commit adultery.

7th) 15 “You shall not steal.

8th) 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9th & 10th) 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Intercession of saints and mariology was never the topic of the tread. I've read the Catholic catechism and it clearly forbids the worship of the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints and idols according to their own confessional teachings.

Speaking as confessional Lutheran we don’t practice praying through the Saints, we can pray for the dead, but we don’t pray through saints (again that’s another subject). We know that the Saints and Angels are praying for us. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

Idolatry is covered in the first commandment.

Most Baptist are iconoclasts. The “Reformed” use logical syllogisms to come to a unbiblical conclusion. They will take Exodus 20:4 to mean an absolute moratorium. There is a moratorium against false satanic worships (e.g. Baal, Golden Calf, etc.).

Lutherans, like Catholics have all kinds of statues, stain glass windows depicting Jesus, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, Holy Angels, crucifixes, etc. We genuflect and knee before the altar, etc. for a reason. It’s not idol worship. We make the sign of the cross to remind us of our baptism and that we are in the presence of a triune God. We do things like genuflect and kneel before the Altar because that’s where Christ comes to us and we feast on Christ Corporal Body and Blood (that’s another subject so leave it alone), etc. Lutherans believe things are sacred, we believe the chaliced, the altar, art works, are sacred things. It all points to Christ so speaking as a Lutheran we are not worshiping idols.

Having statues of Saints, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Holy Angels, and other sacred art is not a violations of God’s law. People are idol making factors so I guess you can make an idol out of just about anything.

I would also be very careful to charge well catechized Catholics with worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, because their official doctrines forbid worship of idiots. It clearly say they are not the worship the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Now, if someone wants make the argument that Intercession of Saints can potentially lead idolatry ~ okay I would agree. But according to their official catechism it’s not allowed. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

----
Exodus 20:2–17, Roman Catholic, Lutheran

1st) 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2nd) 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

3rd) 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; 11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

4th) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5th) 13 “You shall not kill.

6th) 14 “You shall not commit adultery.

7th) 15 “You shall not steal.

8th) 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9th & 10th) 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”


I posted this to Utilyan but thought it might be good to post it to you so that you could get a chance to see it.

I had a friend change the Hebrew text to read left to right so it was easier for me to follow. But you said we should trust Gods' own words. Well hope this will do;
Exo 20:4 לֹֽ֣א H3808 shall not תַֽעֲשֶׂ֨ה־ H6213 Thou shalt not make לְךָ֥֣ H0 פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀ H6459 unto thee any graven image וְכָל־ H3605 any תְּמוּנָ֡֔ה H8544 or any likeness אֲשֶׁ֤֣ר H834 [of any thing] that בַּשָּׁמַ֣֙יִם֙ ׀ H8064 [is] in heaven מִמַּ֡֔עַל H4605 above וַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר֩ H834 of what בָּאָ֖֨רֶץ H776 or that [is] in the earth מִתַָּ֑֜חַת H8478 beneath וַאֲשֶׁ֥֣ר H834 of what בַּמַּ֖֣יִם ׀ H4325 beneath or that [is] in the water מִתַּ֥֣חַת H8478 under לָאָֽ֗רֶץ H776 under the earth

I think that just about covers everything that you could think of.
 
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