The Essence of Faith

[skypair]

HP: How can that be? One must exercise faith antecedent to the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

Can you "exercise" faith before you have it? Where do you get that faith comes before regeneration? Rather, isn't regeneration the beginning of faith?

What one must have before regeneration is BELIEF or HOPE in something that is yet unseen. Did you not repent and receive based on the hope that God's promises were valid? Even if it was proven to you in other people's lives, it still wasn't proven in you yet, right? But when the Spirit comes in, then you have the "evidence" and "substance" that we call "faith." Agree? Disagree?

HP:Scripture starts the process with repentance. Apart from that I agree with the process as you laid it out, but where do you establish that sanctification is by works?

That is an excellent question. Remember the OT saints? How they had all those rituals and feasts? God was showing them 2 things: 1) that faith should work out into the flesh setting us aside for God. 2) That it is possible to try to be sanctifed in the flesh by doing the works of faith without having saving faith. This is one thing that the MK will demonstrate very poignantly --- that people can make the flesh obey Christ's law without ever truly being saved (hence the last rebellion).

And we have this today, don't we? People join the church thinking that the church will save us if only we keep sanctifying ourselves by attendance, keeping the sacraments, reciting the Apostle's Creed, reciting the Lord's Prayer, etc.

True sanctification is growing in Christ which is "works" like scripture study and application, prayer, fellowship, etc. that builds up our spirit as well.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Can you "exercise" faith before you have it? Where do you get that faith comes before regeneration? Rather, isn't regeneration the beginning of faith?

What one must have before regeneration is BELIEF or HOPE in something that is yet unseen. Did you not repent and receive based on the hope that God's promises were valid? Even if it was proven to you in other people's lives, it still wasn't proven in you yet, right? But when the Spirit comes in, then you have the "evidence" and "substance" that we call "faith." Agree? Disagree?

That is an excellent question. Remember the OT saints? How they had all those rituals and feasts? God was showing them 2 things: 1) that faith should work out into the flesh setting us aside for God. 2) That it is possible to try to be sanctifed in the flesh by doing the works of faith without having saving faith. This is one thing that the MK will demonstrate very poignantly --- that people can make the flesh obey Christ's law without ever truly being saved (hence the last rebellion).

And we have this today, don't we? People join the church thinking that the church will save us if only we keep sanctifying ourselves by attendance, keeping the sacraments, reciting the Apostle's Creed, reciting the Lord's Prayer, etc.

True sanctification is growing in Christ which is "works" like scripture study and application, prayer, fellowship, etc. that builds up our spirit as well.

skypair

According to Paul, all along, the remnant Jew was circumcised by the Spirit inwardly, of the heart and not just physical circumcision (Rom 2:29), so the idea of Regeneration under the OT is nothing foreign.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 12 "TO EACH one is given a measure of faith".

John 12:32 "I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me".

"Behold I stand at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice and OPENS the door I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him" Rev 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

1. The OT prophets always spoke of a Remnant, so it is no mere coincidence when Paul says that one is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but one who has been circumcised by the Spirit.

2. In another place Paul says, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" (Rom 9:6).

 

[skypair]

According to Paul, all along, the remnant Jew was circumcised by the Spirit inwardly, of the heart and not just physical circumcision (Rom 2:29), so the idea of Regeneration under the OT is nothing foreign.

You just made me rethink my whole theory. I been following along with the Calvies trying to rationalize their salvation (as they describe it) but now this -- "the idea of Regeneration under the OT is nothing foreign." Actually, they had faith in the OT and regeneration was COMPLETELY foreign to them (cf. John 3 and Nicodemus).

Their "regeneration" was their expected resurrection to earth into the kingdom of Messiah.

So the OT saints had faith. What was the "evidence" and "substance" of it? For Abraham, it was a son -- for Rahab, protection -- for Noah, the flood... Something actually was given to these and others on the word of God which anchored their faith to fact just like ours is anchored by the indwelling Spirit.

Show me the passages where you find this "circumcision of the heart," TC. I would be interested in investigating them. :type:

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

You just made me rethink my whole theory. I been following along with the Calvies trying to rationalize their salvation (as they describe it) but now this -- "the idea of Regeneration under the OT is nothing foreign." Actually, they had faith in the OT and regeneration was COMPLETELY foreign to them (cf. John 3 and Nicodemus).

Their "regeneration" was their expected resurrection to earth into the kingdom of Messiah.

So the OT saints had faith. What was the "evidence" and "substance" of it? For Abraham, it was a son -- for Rahab, protection -- for Noah, the flood... Something actually was given to these and others on the word of God which anchored their faith to fact just like ours is anchored by the indwelling Spirit.

Show me the passages where you find this "circumcision of the heart," TC. I would be interested in investigating them. :type:

skypair

What does Paul mean by Romans 2:29, then?

 

[skypair]

What does Paul mean by Romans 2:29, then?

TC -- Here's the verses: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The "mark" of a real Jew is his spirit -- what's in his mind, emotions, and will rather than on his foreskin. I think it is fair to say that circumcision was a mark of nationality rather than faith. That is what I believe Paul was saying.

However, we have ample evidence that the Spirit was not sent to indwell believers until Christ arose -- John 14:16-17 ("...for He dwelleth with you, and SHALL be in you."), 26, ("...the Comforter ... the Holy Ghost Whom the Father WILL send..."), 16:7 ("...it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come..."). Surely you are not a new covenant Christian if you don't have any more "spirit" than the OT saints did! I mean -- the new covenant spirit was only promised to them some day. We are in possession of Him -- and He of us -- now!

And what is one of the "signs" (if you will) that the Comforter indwells now and not then? It is that we understand the mysteries withheld from the OT saints! As I've remarked before -- we don't have COMPLETE sight. Christ's "kingdom" that we live in is spiritual, not physical. It is not the total fulfillment of the OT prophecies that the OT saints were expecting. But we DO "see" that kingdom whereas the OT saints had only clues of it.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

TC -- Here's the verses: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

1. Depends on the translation you use. "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God" (Rom 2:29, NASB, emphasis mine).

The "mark" of a real Jew is his spirit -- what's in his mind, emotions, and will rather than on his foreskin. I think it is fair to say that circumcision was a mark of nationality rather than faith. That is what I believe Paul was saying.

2. God's covenant with Abraham was sealed with circumcision; thereafter, his descendents were born into the covenant and then circumcised--there was no difference between nationality and faith.

[QUOTE- However, we have ample evidence that the Spirit was not sent to indwell believers until Christ arose -- John 14:16-17 ("...for He dwelleth with you, and SHALL be in you."), 26, ("...the Comforter ... the Holy Ghost Whom the Father WILL send..."), 16:7 ("...it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come..."). Surely you are not a new covenant Christian if you don't have any more "spirit" than the OT saints did! I mean -- the new covenant spirit was only promised to them some day. We are in possession of Him -- and He of us -- now![/QUOTE]

3. The Holy Spirit took up temporary residence in the OT (Luk 1, 2).

And what is one of the "signs" (if you will) that the Comforter indwells now and not then? It is that we understand the mysteries withheld from the OT saints! As I've remarked before -- we don't have COMPLETE sight. Christ's "kingdom" that we live in is spiritual, not physical. It is not the total fulfillment of the OT prophecies that the OT saints were expecting. But we DO "see" that kingdom whereas the OT saints had only clues of it.

4. Old Testament saints knew of the coming kingdom. In fact, it is well documented in Jewish eschatology of the coming of the Messiah to set up His kingdom, even before the NT times.

 

[skypair]

1. Depends on the translation you use. "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God" (Rom 2:29, NASB, emphasis mine).

Well, we know that all conversion is by the leading of the Spirit -- but it is NOT by the indwelling of the Spirit. That's where Calvinism fails. Y'all put regeneration -- the indwelling of the Spirit -- BEFORE belief (which you call faith). In so doing, you assume anyone who at any time was/is saved is already indwelt.

No, salvation -- the justification aspect at least -- does not require indwelling of the Spirit, only the "drawing" (as you like to say) of the Spirit.

2. God's covenant with Abraham was sealed with circumcision; thereafter, his descendents were born into the covenant and then circumcised--there was no difference between nationality and faith.

Yes, but which "covenant" were they sealed into? The national/land covenant --- or the faith covenant? Did God not say "I will make of thee a great nation?"

Adding further to that thought, didn't God make them a theocracy? where faith and nation were wedded to Him? And did they not later renounce God as King and desire to have their own king like their neighbors? Circumcision of "strangers" -- was it not like a dual citizenship, spiritual and political?

I guess the point I am trying to make is that even the Jews were confused about which covenant circumcision brought them under -- hence Rom 2:29.

3. The Holy Spirit took up temporary residence in the OT (Luk 1, 2).

Well, not exactly. "Residence" would not be the word -- "filling," maybe. I don't know of any word in the OT that compares with "dwell in you" or "sealed" or "earnest of our redemption" or "never leave thee or forsake thee" (interesting thought here: Jesus died in the OT and the Spirit/God "forsook" Him on the cross, but that would/could never happen now.), etc.

And I cannot defy the words of Jesus when He said "this is the new covenant of my blood." The new covenant spoken of in Jer 31:31 could not possibly have happened before Jer 31:31 -- but truly didn't happen until Acts 2!

You know all this. It is a matter of applying it and then seeing where that puts your theology, TC.

4. Old Testament saints knew of the coming kingdom. In fact, it is well documented in Jewish eschatology of the coming of the Messiah to set up His kingdom, even before the NT times.

They knew of the coming PHYSICAL kingdom, yes. They DIDN'T know of a) it's postponement and b) of this partial fulfillment in between (between weeks 69 and 70 of Dan 9:24).

And again, believing is not seeing. What the OT believers had was "HOPE," not faith or sight.

Again, do you pour scripture into your theological mold or do you let scriptures speak for themselves?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Well, we know that all conversion is by the leading of the Spirit -- but it is NOT by the indwelling of the Spirit. That's where Calvinism fails. Y'all put regeneration -- the indwelling of the Spirit -- BEFORE belief (which you call faith). In so doing, you assume anyone who at any time was/is saved is already indwelt.

1. No well-bred Calvinist teaches that Regeneration is by the Indwelling of the Spirit. Rather, the Word is preached/taught, and the Spirit, with the Word, quickens a dead heart, softens a hardened heart, opens a blinded heart, to repent and put faith in Christ for Salvation; then a person is adopted and sealed with the Indwelling Spirit for Eternity.

Yes, but which "covenant" were they sealed into? The national/land covenant --- or the faith covenant? Did God not say "I will make of thee a great nation?"

2. That is inferring too much from my statement.

Adding further to that thought, didn't God make them a theocracy? where faith and nation were wedded to Him? And did they not later renounce God as King and desire to have their own king like their neighbors? Circumcision of "strangers" -- was it not like a dual citizenship, spiritual and political?

3. And we both agree.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that even the Jews were confused about which covenant circumcision brought them under -- hence Rom 2:29.

4. The Jew that was circumcised by the Spirit in the heart had no need to be confused.

Well, not exactly. "Residence" would not be the word -- "filling," maybe. I don't know of any word in the OT that compares with "dwell in you" or "sealed" or "earnest of our redemption" or "never leave thee or forsake thee" (interesting thought here: Jesus died in the OT and the Spirit/God "forsook" Him on the cross, but that would/could never happen now.), etc.

5. Maybe temporary filling is a better way to look at it, but that doesn't not disprove the fact of a temporary dwelling (Ps 51:11). Why would David say that?

And I cannot defy the words of Jesus when He said "this is the new covenant of my blood." The new covenant spoken of in Jer 31:31 could not possibly have happened before Jer 31:31 -- but truly didn't happen until Acts 2!

6. No one said it did, but God always preserved a Remnant (7000 didn't bow the knees to Baal, but were kept by God, 1 Kg 19:18).

You know all this. It is a matter of applying it and then seeing where that puts your theology, TC.

7. Theologically, we will continue to differ on some things. :thumbs:

They knew of the coming PHYSICAL kingdom, yes. They DIDN'T know of a) it's postponement and b) of this partial fulfillment in between (between weeks 69 and 70 of Dan 9:24).

8. I love God's Timetable.

And again, believing is not seeing. What the OT believers had was "HOPE," not faith or sight.

9. Hope rests on Faith, my friend.

 

[skypair]

1. No well-bred Calvinist teaches that Regeneration is by the Indwelling of the Spirit. Rather, the Word is preached/taught, and the Spirit, with the Word, quickens a dead heart, softens a hardened heart, opens a blinded heart, to repent and put faith in Christ for Salvation; then a person is adopted and sealed with the Indwelling Spirit for Eternity.

Ah! Good! Then regeneration is the 'new birth' (AKA regeneration) and comes after faith? And being 'born again' (AKA "elect") is not a prerequisite to hearing the gospel?

It sounds like you are saying that 'regeneration' is the process of hearing the gospel, repenting and receiving Christ by which one is born again. You're saying that being born again, the new birth, is the Holy Spirit indwelling and denote or connote 'regeneration?'

See, cause I have ALWAYS equated 'regeneration' with 'born again.' And I agree, it would be wrong to say one was 'born again' prior to having faith. I have consistently insisted that there is a process before regeneration that involves belief and repentance and receiving the GIFT of the indwelling Spirit.

I guess your use of 'regeneration' was the problem.

4. The Jew that was circumcised by the Spirit in the heart had no need to be confused.

Well, that's like saying that the new covenant Christian has no excuse for not knowing the mysteries or understanding the parables. It really depends on their maturity, right?

5. Maybe temporary filling is a better way to look at it, but that doesn't not disprove the fact of a temporary dwelling (Ps 51:11). Why would David say that?

1) because it was a possibility that the Holy Spirit would leave him. 2) because that is the case with FILLING of the Spirit but not with indwelling of the Spirit.

Can I approach it on a really elementary level with you? Say that the Spirit was merely the wisdom of God. We who believe the Spirit now have all the "loose ends" tied up for us, don't we. We see how 'it is all going down' for God's people. Does that knowledge ever leave us once attained and believed? No.

But what did the OT saints have? Prophecies and promises shrouded in mystery! As Daniel said, "the book is sealed till the end come." How would rituals and feasts be related to life is hidden. The Spirit, in my mind, came whilest obeying God but fled when not doing so (David spying Bathsheba). Does the Spirit flee when we sin?

Think about it. I'm not saying this last answer IS the answer. I'm just saying we have to believe what God says about indwelling before and after Christ. Maybe you can prayerfully think of a better paradigm.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

1. My good brother, Do not let your theology cause you to misread the scriptural data.

2. Everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith in the manner of the faith of Abraham, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether OT or NT (Rom 4:1-12).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: . Everyone who has ever been justified has been justified by faith in the manner of the faith of Abraham, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether OT or NT (Rom 4:1-12).

HP: That is indeed true, but justification is NOT something that happens ‘before’ one fulfills the conditions of salvation as I understand you as believing.

 

[skypair]

TC,

When I get home (Wednesday), I''m gonna quote you another Sproul contradiction that truly amazes me for one who teaches that there are NO conditions for election. Stay tuned. Maybe you can explain it (away). :laugh:

skypair