The Essential Unity of The Father and Jesus Christ

[JamesL]

It does not read that in the Greek text. "ἔδωκεν", does not here mean "to give someone something they did not possess already", but, as used by Homer in the Greek, "to permit something to be done". As verse 27 says, "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man". As the Son of Man, Jesus was working on the Authority of the Father, here on earth, where the Father was greater than Him (John 14:28). Please note the phrase: "ἔχει ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτῷ" (have life in Himself), which is used for both the Father and the Son, which means "self-existent", for both Persons equally. If the Father "gave" Jesus life at any time, than He could not also be to "have live in Himself", which means "underived"

What do you mean it doesn't read that in the Greek text? What kind of corrupted text are you reading?

Further, there are 65 uses of edoken in the New Testament - and you're appealing to Homer?

Like John 1:12 - he "gave" (edoken) them the right to become sons of God. Same writer. Same gospel. Same word.

Nevermind. I can see you're entrenched. Carry on....

 

[AndyMartin]

What do you mean it doesn't read that in the Greek text? What kind of corrupted text are you reading?

Further, there are 65 uses of edoken in the New Testament - and you're appealing to Homer?

Like John 1:12 - he "gave" (edoken) them the right to become sons of God. Same writer. Same gospel. Same word.

Nevermind. I can see you're entrenched. Carry on....

You have failed to understand the use of the Greek here. The use and context a word is used in is very important. You are wrongly assuming that a word has the same meaning in every place. Take "κόσμος" as an example. In John 3:16-17, leaving theology aside, its meaning according to the basic Greek lexicons, is "the whole human race". And yet in John 12:19, the same word is used for Jesus by the Pharisees, who say, "the world has gone after Him", which is not referring to the "whole world", because the Pharisees, who are part of the "world", did not "go after Him". I gave an example from Homer to show the use of the word. Now I will show you one from John's Gospel, which will shows exactly what I mean. In 17:5, Jesus says to the Father, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.". Jesus is here speaking of His "glory", which He says that He says, "I had", which in the Greek is, "εἶχον", in the "imperfect tense", which is used of "a past action with continued results". Like John 1:1, "the Word was with God...was God", where "ἦν", "was", is literally, "was and is". This means that His glory is something that He shared with the Father, equally, from all eternity, and belonged to Jesus as much as it does to the Father. Yet in John 17:22, 24 Jesus can say, "the glory which You gave Me". But as we have already seen from verse 5, Jesus always possessed this glory, and therefore could not have been "given" to Him at any time. Jesus speaks in His "humanity" (Incarnation) when He was subject to the Father. Likewise in John 14:28, Jesus says "the Father is greater than I", yet in 10:30, He says, "I and the Father are one", where He speaks of "essential unity", seen fro His words in verse 29, "my hand", "the Father's hand", which speaks of "equal power and protection". Both Jesus and the Father must be equally God, as His own words confirm this more than once.

 

[AndyMartin]

What do you mean it doesn't read that in the Greek text? What kind of corrupted text are you reading?

Further, there are 65 uses of edoken in the New Testament - and you're appealing to Homer?

Like John 1:12 - he "gave" (edoken) them the right to become sons of God. Same writer. Same gospel. Same word.

Nevermind. I can see you're entrenched. Carry on....

can you tell me Who you think Jesus is then?

 

[AndyMartin]

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:17-18)

"ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ", "making Himself equal with God", Here the Greek word ""ἴσον" (from "ἴσος"), is very interestingly defined by Joseph Thayer in his Greek lexicon, "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God" (p.307). Thayer was a Unitarian, who himself denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, as he did the Trinity and Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit. yet he rightly tells us what the Greek here actually means. Only if Jesus were "co-equal, co-essential and co-eternal", with the Father, could He have said what He did, "My Father", in a unique way, to exclude anyone else from this relationship, which the Jews perfectly understood Him, and why the wanted to kill Him. Note, Jesus does not try to correct them by saying that "I am not equal to the Father", or, "you should not say such things", etc. He accepted what they said because it is true.

In John 1:1, we read of the Father as "God", (the Word was with God), and then it says, "and the Word was God". Is the use of "θεὸς" when used for Jesus, equally used as when it is for the Father, or in a lesser sense? If the same way, then here you have Jesus' CO-EQUALITY with the Father, as both are GOD

 

[AndyMartin]

You didn't answer my question. What verse says co-equal and co-eternal?

Another passage that very clearly shows the "co-equality" of Jesus with the Father, is Philippians chapter 2:

"Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the nature of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the nature of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" (5-7)

"He was" is from the Greek, "ὑπάρχων", which is in the "imperfect tense", which denotes an "incomplete action, one that is in its course, and is not yet brought to its intended accomplishment" (Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammer, p.187). "always existing" is a better rendering. "μορφῇ θεοῦ", is rightly translated in versions like the NIV, "nature of God". We then have "equality with God" (τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ), where "ἴσα" is here used to denote, "on equal terms, without advantage to either side", hence "co-equal". Jesus, Who is eternally God, did not consider His equality with the Father something that did not belong to Him by right. The word "ἁρπαγμὸν", which the KJV renders "robbery", has the meaning "a thing to be grasped", and “a matter of robbery.”, with the sense that Jesus' equality with the Father, was always His, as He is God, as much as the Father is God. This is the force of the Greek text, and rightly so understood, as I have shown.

 

[JamesL]

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:17-18)

"ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ", "making Himself equal with God", Here the Greek word ""ἴσον" (from "ἴσος"), is very interestingly defined by Joseph Thayer in his Greek lexicon, "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God" (p.307). Thayer was a Unitarian, who himself denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, as he did the Trinity and Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit. yet he rightly tells us what the Greek here actually means. Only if Jesus were "co-equal, co-essential and co-eternal", with the Father, could He have said what He did, "My Father", in a unique way, to exclude anyone else from this relationship, which the Jews perfectly understood Him, and why the wanted to kill Him. Note, Jesus does not try to correct them by saying that "I am not equal to the Father", or, "you should not say such things", etc. He accepted what they said because it is true.

In John 1:1, we read of the Father as "God", (the Word was with God), and then it says, "and the Word was God". Is the use of "θεὸς" when used for Jesus, equally used as when it is for the Father, or in a lesser sense? If the same way, then here you have Jesus' CO-EQUALITY with the Father, as both are GOD

I don't think you understand the difference between equal and co-equal

 

[JamesL]

You have failed to understand the use of the Greek here. The use and context a word is used in is very important. You are wrongly assuming that a word has the same meaning in every place. Take "κόσμος" as an example. In John 3:16-17, leaving theology aside, its meaning according to the basic Greek lexicons, is "the whole human race". And yet in John 12:19, the same word is used for Jesus by the Pharisees, who say, "the world has gone after Him", which is not referring to the "whole world", because the Pharisees, who are part of the "world", did not "go after Him". I gave an example from Homer to show the use of the word. Now I will show you one from John's Gospel, which will shows exactly what I mean. In 17:5, Jesus says to the Father, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.". Jesus is here speaking of His "glory", which He says that He says, "I had", which in the Greek is, "εἶχον", in the "imperfect tense", which is used of "a past action with continued results". Like John 1:1, "the Word was with God...was God", where "ἦν", "was", is literally, "was and is". This means that His glory is something that He shared with the Father, equally, from all eternity, and belonged to Jesus as much as it does to the Father. Yet in John 17:22, 24 Jesus can say, "the glory which You gave Me". But as we have already seen from verse 5, Jesus always possessed this glory, and therefore could not have been "given" to Him at any time. Jesus speaks in His "humanity" (Incarnation) when He was subject to the Father. Likewise in John 14:28, Jesus says "the Father is greater than I", yet in 10:30, He says, "I and the Father are one", where He speaks of "essential unity", seen fro His words in verse 29, "my hand", "the Father's hand", which speaks of "equal power and protection". Both Jesus and the Father must be equally God, as His own words confirm this more than once.

First, you're assuming what I assume, and you're flat wrong. Instead of jumping to conclusions, you should investigate.

And if you think you're going to convince someone with six books worth of that philosophical drivel you've been posting, you are sadly mistaken.

I've heard it all before. Heck, I've even promoted it. But I get it. You're towing the line. In the tactic you are using is that of someone who's unsure, and working diligently to convince himself

 

[JamesL]

can you tell me Who you think Jesus is then?

I can tell you for sure, this is a much more productive way to start. And don't get the idea that I want you eating out of my hand.

If you really want to have an exchange about this very important issue, you're going to have to go back to my first entry in this thread and read it intently.

Post #6 - see there what I have explicitly stated, because I can tell from your comments that you didn't really even read what I wrote.

 

[AndyMartin]

I don't think you understand the difference between equal and co-equal

tell me then?

 

[JamesL]

tell me then?

Here's a nice, concise comparison....
Equal vs Coequal - What's the difference?

From that page:

As adjectives the difference between equal and coequal
is that equal is (label) the same in all respects while coequal is equal to each other in size, rank or position.
As nouns the difference between equal and coequal
is that equal is a person or thing of equal status to others while coequal is an equal person or thing.

 

[AndyMartin]

Here's a nice, concise comparison....
Equal vs Coequal - What's the difference?

From that page:

As adjectives the difference between equal and coequal
is that equal is (label) the same in all respects while coequal is equal to each other in size, rank or position.
As nouns the difference between equal and coequal
is that equal is a person or thing of equal status to others while coequal is an equal person or thing.

Regardless of any definitions, the Bible's very clear teaching is that God is One, and at the same time Three distinct Person's within the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And They are co-equal, co-eternal and co-essential. Neither Person is greater than the other in any way. Because Scripture says the Father "sends" Jesus and the Holy Spirit, does not make Him the "first" in the Trinity. There is zero essential difference between the Three Persons. Each is Almighty God in the fullest and same sense of the word. Anything else or less is heretical.

 

[JamesL]

Regardless of any definitions, the Bible's very clear teaching is that God is One, and at the same time Three distinct Person's within the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And They are co-equal, co-eternal and co-essential. Neither Person is greater than the other in any way. Because Scripture says the Father "sends" Jesus and the Holy Spirit, does not make Him the "first" in the Trinity. There is zero essential difference between the Three Persons. Each is Almighty God in the fullest and same sense of the word. Anything else or less is heretical.

if the Bible clearly teaches it, then show me book chapter and verse

If you cannot provide book chapter and verse, then at best it's a stretch to say the Bible clearly teaches it. At worst, it would be totally disingenuous

So tell me....which book, chapter, and verse teach three distinct persons within a godhead?

 

[AndyMartin]

if the Bible clearly teaches it, then show me book chapter and verse

If you cannot provide book chapter and verse, then at best it's a stretch to say the Bible clearly teaches it. At worst, it would be totally disingenuous

So tell me....which book, chapter, and verse teach three distinct persons within a godhead?

MATTHEW 28:19

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptise them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Note, Jesus says, "to onoma", "The Name", that is "One Name", and not "ta onomata", the plural, "The Names", "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". What, then is "The Name", that Jesus says, belongs to Himself, and the Father and Holy Spirit? We read in Exodus chapter 3, where Moses asks Almighty God for His "Name". To which God replies, "Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh", which is best rendered into English as, "I am that I am" (ver.14). The Greek version of the Old Testament (The Septuagint), which was done some 150 years before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, has it, "ego eimi ho on", "I am the Eternal One". The Name of God, “Yahweh” in the Hebrew is, “the one bringing into life, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, the one who is, i.e., the absolute unchangeable one, the existing, ever living” (F Brown, S R Driver and C A Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon, p.218) When God tells Moses that “I am has sent you” (verse 14), He is giving His Name, “Yahweh” as the “Eternal, Self-existing, All-powerful, Creator God”, as He said in Isaiah, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name” (42:8). The Name which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 28:19, no doubt is "Yahweh".

It should also be noted, that, even though Jesus says "Name", (singular), the Greek text that follows is also very important: "tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Hagiou Pneumatos", where the Greek "article" (tou), is repeated, to show that a "distinction" of Persons is meant. Yet, as YAHWEH they have ONE NAME. It is impossible for any created being to have the same “Name” of Almighty God. No one doubts that the Father is God, and therefore “eternal and uncreated” (Yahweh). The fact that here we have both Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, Two distinct Persons, together with the Father, where They have the SAME NAME of ALMIGHTY GOD, can only teach us that the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is Biblical, and not an invention of the early Church.

 

[JamesL]

.....Neither Person is greater than the other in any way...... Anything else or less is heretical.

Consider that Jesus said "the Father is greater than I"

I would suggest the next time you pray, you ought to tell Him He's a liar and a heretic, no?

 

[AndyMartin]

Consider that Jesus said "the Father is greater than I"

I would suggest the next time you pray, you ought to tell Him He's a liar and a heretic, no?

May I ask what "baptist" are you, or are you a Jehovah's Witness or the like?

 

[JamesL]

May I ask what "baptist" are you, or are you a Jehovah's Witness or the like?

only after you clean up that mess from your previous post.

You said neither person is greater than the other in any way. but Jesus plainly said "the father is greater than I"

so either you are wrong or he's a liar...
Which one?

 

[JamesL]

May I ask what "baptist" are you, or are you a Jehovah's Witness or the like?

and that ignorant question just confirms that you still haven't read my initial entry in this thread... Post # 6

 

[AndyMartin]

only after you clean up that mess from your previous post.

You said neither person is greater than the other in any way. but Jesus plainly said "the father is greater than I"

so either you are wrong or he's a liar...
Which one?

Jesus Christ, IS Almighty God, uncreated and eternal. Do you believe this?

When Jesus Christ became a man at His Incarnation, He of His own became "subject" to God the Father, for the purpose of redemption of lost sinners. Do you believe this?

Jesus Christ while on earth was fully God and fully man, not 50% but 100%, hence the God-man. which means that He is "subject" to the Father, as well as His equal. Do you believe this?

Hebrews 2:9 teaches us this about the Incarnation of Jesus, "But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." Do you believe this?

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one", which in its context speaks of onenes of power and protection, and essential unity. Do you believe this?

God the Father addressing Jesus in Hebrews 1:8, says to Him, "Your throne O God is forever", and in verses 10-12 ascribes actual Creation directly to Jesus Christ. Do you believe this?

 

[AndyMartin]

and that ignorant question just confirms that you still haven't read my initial entry in this thread... Post # 6

Nothing ignorant about asking you a very simple question, which you cannot answer. It is clear from your responses that you deny the Bible's Teaching of the Holy Trinity. One Godhead with Three Person's, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each Person is equal to the other in every way, making them coequal, with not essential advantage to either Person.

You asked for a text for the Trinity as I gave you Matthew 28:19, which I have shown to say exactly that from the use of the Greek text. You carrying on arguing you points which tell me that you deny that Jesus Christ is Almighty God EXACTLY the same was the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. When the heavenly beings cry out "Holy Holy Holy", this is to each Person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think if you just go by what the Bible says, instead of approaching it from a philosophical standpoint, You come away with a Jesus who is both God and man (not in a 200% hypostatic union double-guy kind of philosophy).

You'll Come Away with a Jesus who is not equal to His Father (as is promulgated in a three person, co-equal, co-eternal kind of philosophy).

You'll come away with a Jesus who makes sense in light of statements that he made - such as the Father having granted the Son to have life in Himself.

You'll also understand how the world was made by Him, through Him, and for Him.

You'll also understand how it is that he took upon Himself sinful flesh, as the scriptures clearly state.

You will also understand what it means that he is the Son of God.

Then you won't have to philosophize how about unity of purpose, substance....

But if you do develop your view of Jesus from plain biblical statements, you will most certainly offend people who put creeds, councils, and tradition above scripture.

Jesus is very God of very God, he is Yahweh in human flesh!
To deny that is to be eternally lost in your sin...