AndyMartin
Active Member
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins" (John 8:24)
"ἐγώ εἰμι", as in John 8:58, and Exodus 3:14. "I am Yahweh"
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The Essential Unity of The Father and Jesus Christ
- Thread starter AndyMartin
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"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins" (John 8:24)
"ἐγώ εἰμι", as in John 8:58, and Exodus 3:14. "I am Yahweh"
AndyMartin
Active Member
You have a problem in name calling! Grow up!!!
You have a problem with straw men. Instead of engaging with what I've already written, you've already convinced yourself what you just know I have to believe.
So maybe I need to grow up. But you need to become honest
AndyMartin
Active Member
simple question here. Do you believe that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are Almighty God?
Simple question back at you. Will you please go read Post 6?
AndyMartin
Active Member
I have! It does NOT answer the question if you fully believe with all your heart, that Jesus Christ is YAHWEH, fully equal to God the Father. Yes or no? John 1:1, "the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God (the Father), and the Word was God". COEQUAL with the Father! Two distinct "Persons", yet one God.
Are you telling me that when I wrote:
"I think if you just go by what the Bible says, instead of approaching it from a philosophical standpoint, You come away with a Jesus who is both God and man (not in a 200% hypostatic union double-guy kind of philosophy)"
That you don't understand that?
As for "coequal", absolutely NOT. Jesus said the Father is greater
As for "Persons", you tell me what you think one Person is, and I'll tell you if I think there are three of them
I have many times, and you seem to be stating that Jesus us not God in the strict sense of the term!
AndyMartin
Active Member
So, so are saying that as "God", Jesus Christ is not "God", in exactly the same way that the Father is? In which case you must believe in 2 distinct Gods, one greater than the other! In your thinking John 1:1, does not read "and the Word was God", equivalent to when "God" is used for the Father in the same verse (with God)? I take this also to mean that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is also "God"? The Bible, not me, very clearly says that in His essential being, Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and the Father is Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit is Yahweh. Essentially one God, yet 3 distinct "Persons", truly a deep mystery. As I said before, in Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addressing Jesus says, "your throne O God". You have completely misunderstood John 14:28, about Jesus saying that the "Father is greater than I". Worship is ONLY to be directed to Almighty God, and yet in Hebrews 1:6, again the Father says, "let all God's angels worship Him (Jesus)". ONLY if Jesus is absolutely coequal to the Father, can He ever be worshiped.
AndyMartin
Active Member
Yes, to him Jesus is "like" God, hence he cannot use coequal.
I don't see how you get that out of
"both God and man"
Actually, yes I do. It's because you have believed a philosophical position first, probably out of fear of being condemned, and then you weigh all the scriptures according to what you've already believed.
And then you've become convinced that anything that doesn't sound like your philosophical position must be adhering to something that was condemned by those earlier philosophers.
You see, it's one thing that they saw something in scripture and came to a conclusion. It's another thing altogether that you take what they said first, and impose it back upon the scriptures
See, that's the straw man I'm talking about. You're speaking out of pure ignorance
AndyMartin
Active Member
My "ignorance" is based on the Teachings of the Holy Bible. Can you tell me how you understand John 1:1?
No, your ignorance is in pre-determining that you already know what I believe, then asking questions of the straw man you've propped up. And then answering your own questions.
Good job. I'm sure somebody somewhere is proud of a sham tactic like that.
As for John 1:1, I understand it as it is written - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Don't tell me... You see "Persons" there, don't you?
AndyMartin
Active Member
Dr Loraine Boettner's description on the use of "Person" for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is most helpful.
"How shall we define the term “person”? As it is used in modern Psychology it means an
intelligent, free, moral agent. But in setting forth the doctrine of the Trinity the Church has
used the term in a sense different from that in which it is used anywhere else. The word
“Person” as it is applied to the three subsistences within the Godhead, like the more important
word “Trinity,” is not found in Scripture itself; yet the idea which it expresses is Scriptural,
and we do not know any other word that expresses so well the idea we have in mind. In the
science of Theology, as in all other sciences, some technical terms are an absolute necessity.
When we say there are three distinct persons in the Godhead we do not mean that each one is
as separate from the others as one human being is from every other. While they are said to
love, to hear, to pray to, to send, and to testify of each other, they are, nevertheless, not
independent of each other; for as we have already said, self-existence and independence are
properties, not of the individual persons, but of the Triune God. The singular pronouns I,
Thou, He and Him are applied to each of the three Persons; yet these same singular pronouns
are applied to the Triune God who is composed of these three Persons. Hence too much stress
must not be laid on the mere term. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be distinguished, but
they cannot be separated; for they each possess the same identical numerical substance or
essence. They do not merely exist alongside of each other, as did Washington, Jefferson and
Franklin, but they permeate and interpenetrate each other, are in and through each other."
(Studies in Theology, p.109)
The teaching of the Bible is very clear, that, God is One being, called the "Godhead" , in Romans 1:20. The Greek here is, "θειότης", which means, "divine nature". Within this "divine nature", there are Three distinct "Persons", Who are not one and the same. God is not "unipersonal".
We can see examples showing the "distinction" between the Father in Jesus Christ, when Jesus says, "The Father has sent Me" (John 5:36); "as the Living Father has sent Me" (John 6:57); "I came from beside the Father" (John 16:28), where the Greek preposition, "παρὰ", is here used, "denoting motion from the side of, from beside", which clearly shows that Jesus and the Father are "distinct", as They are "beside" each other. This is exactly what Jesus says regarding the Coming of the Holy Spirit, after He departs, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from beside (παρὰ) the Father, he shall testify of me" (John 15:26). The Holy Spirit is called, "ἄλλον παράκλητον" (another Comforter), where "ἄλλον" means, "another, i. e. one besides what has been mentioned". John chapter 16 says that after Jesus had departed, He would send the Holy Spirit, Who would continue His work in believers, etc. The language clearly shows that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "one and the same Person". I have already shown from John 1:1, where the Greek grammar shows, that Jesus, "the Word" is "with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν), where we have the Greek Preposition, "πρὸς", which denotes, "on the side of, towards", showing "distinction", that Two are mentioned. Then John goes on to say of Jesus, "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος", (and the Word was God), equivalent use of "θεὸς" here for Jesus as it is used for the Father in the previous mention.
We then have the great passage in John chapter 10, where Dr Charles Ellicott's words are very good to explain them.
"I and my Father are one.—The last clause of Joh_10:29 is identical with the last clause of Joh_10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in Joh_8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (Joh_10:33)."
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AndyMartin
Active Member
I have already given Matthew 28:19 as a clear text for the Holy Trinity, which shows that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are "distinct Persons" (the best word in English to describe Them), yet share the One Name, Yahweh. I would like to add here what one of the leading Greek grammarians has said on the Greek text.
"εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος" (into the Name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit)
"In the enumeration of several persons or things, joined by a connective particle, an Article before the first only intimates a connection between the whole, as forming one object of thought. This is termed 'combined enumeration'. The repeated Article, on the other hand, implies a separation, in themselves, or in the view taken of them" (Dr Samuel Green; Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, p.198)
In Matthew 28:19, it is the second use that is applied. If you have any problems understanding what Dr Green says, I can help. This is a basic rule of Greek grammar.
"εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος" (into the Name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit)
"In the enumeration of several persons or things, joined by a connective particle, an Article before the first only intimates a connection between the whole, as forming one object of thought. This is termed 'combined enumeration'. The repeated Article, on the other hand, implies a separation, in themselves, or in the view taken of them" (Dr Samuel Green; Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, p.198)
In Matthew 28:19, it is the second use that is applied. If you have any problems understanding what Dr Green says, I can help. This is a basic rule of Greek grammar.
Jesus Himself saw that he was equal to God, do you?
AndyMartin
Active Member
reading his posts, I don't think so. sadly there are many "evangelicals" who also deny the full equality of the Persons in the Godhead, with many accepting the heretical teaching of "eternal generation", which comes from Origen in the 2nd/3rd centuries, who taught that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were created! What makes it worse, than some "evangelicals" think that Origen was a great theologian!
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Jesus was/is eternally begotten of the father, and the Holy Spirit is from both of them, but not in subordination roles, as all 3 are eternally God, co equals, have exact same attributes etx!
AndyMartin
Active Member
Not in the Bible, this is early Church theology. How can they be "coequal", if the Father "generates" the Son and Holy Spirit? Its like the Sun, and its rays. One is the "source", the others are "derived". Please give one Bible text.