The Eternal Relational Subordination Of God the Son

[1689Dave]

Therefore for »orthodox Christianity, cults of Christianity are groups that, while claiming to be Christian, deny central doctrinal tenets such as the »Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ. They deviate from the doctrinal norms set forth in the »Bible and the historical creeds of Christendom.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 381). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

 

[Revmitchell]

No way. They are with the Father the same LORD God. Uncaused.

You do know that you are speaking past him....right? You may be saying the same thing but you are meaning something entirely different. By the way no one has suggested they were "caused".

 

[37818]

How so?

Where in the written word of God is ". . . the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, . . ." taught?

A different Christ?

Why would you think that?

 

[37818]

You do know that you are speaking past him....right? You may be saying the same thing but you are meaning something entirely different. By the way no one has suggested they were "caused".

Yes, thank you. The problem is the term "begotten" is a cause.

 

[1689Dave]

Where in the written word of God is ". . . the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, . . ." taught?
Why would you think that?

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” Galatians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900)
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, thank you. The problem is the term "begotten" is a cause.

Then maybe you need to address that.

 

[1689Dave]

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Revmitchell]

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” Galatians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900)
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)

I don't know what it is with you calvies be let me assure you simply posting scripture does not make your point. You must also offer an explanation of what you believe it says or proves. You are not communicating at all.

 

[1689Dave]

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON


The Symbol of Chalcedon, adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, dates back to 451 A.D.. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, writes of the Symbol (or Creed) of Chalcedon, “While the first Council of Nicaea had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the Fourth Ecumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity.”3



We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.


Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't know what it is with you calvies be let me assure you simply posting scripture does not make your point. You must also offer an explanation of what you believe it says or proves. You are not communicating at all.

I posted several creeds that explain this.

 

[Revmitchell]

I posted several creeds that explain this.

You then posted scripture only. That does not tell anyone what you believe.

 

[1689Dave]

You then posted scripture only. That does not tell anyone what you believe.

The creeds explain scripture where they originated. Do you believe the Ecumenical Creeds?

 

[Revmitchell]

The creeds explain scripture where they originated. Do you believe the Ecumenical Creeds?

I am talking to you and your post which only contained scripture which you did not give your understanding. the creeds are irrelevant to that post.

 

[agedman]

I only intend to post once on this thread.

It is unfortunate (imo) that often folks want to be creative with the language and in doing so make devisions in the unity of the faith, and bring confusion to the common persons.

Packer is possibly one of the most outstanding theological thinkers of this modern time.

He stated on this matter:

""Part of the revealed mystery of the Godhead is that the three persons stand in a fixed relation to each other....It is the nature of the second person of the Trinity to acknowledge the authority and submit to the good pleasure of the first. That is why He declares Himself to be the Son, and the first person to be His Father. Though co-equal with the Father in eternity, power, and glory, it is natural to Him to play the Son's part, and find all His joy in doing His Father's will, just as it is natural to the first person of the Trinity to plan and initiate the works of the Godhead and natural to the third person to proceed from the Father and the Son to do their joint bidding. Thus the obedience of the God-man to the Father while He was on earth was not a new relationship occasioned by the incarnation, but the continuation in time of the eternal relationship between the Son and the Father in heaven." Knowing God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1973), 54-55.​

Any student of Scriptures who has not read Packer's "Knowing God" should spend a good deal of time digesting that short book.

I enjoyed it many years ago. But I have a slight disagreement. It is minor, but as you read you may discern a time line difference between Packer and me.

In the above quote, the reader should notice that it is the Son who presents Himself to be the Son and submissive to the instructions of the Father. In the custom of the day, the folks understood the role of the son/father. They also understood the role of the authority of the son and that submission of the son to the ultimate authority of the Father.

There was no "new relationship" between Father and Son, but that same which was from eternity, as Paul said, ". 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
​

This prayer offered by The Lord Jesus Christ to the Father expresses this thinking, also:

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
​

Two points:
1) the prayer makes specific the authority in which salvation is granted to humans. It is by the authority of the Father through the Son. Not the appeal of humankind.

2) The Son's glory before or at the moment the world was established (NOT incarnation) was to be restored. This is were Packer and I differ.

Imo, this is an important point. From BEFORE the world formed, Christ was eternally glorified with the Father.

At the point of foundations being laid, Christ was already "begotten and slain". Revelations 8:

8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

(now I know there is dispute concerning the rendering by those of the ESV and NASB (and others), but I find no confusion in the NKJ concerning this verse - they can leave out the time line, I do not).

When did Christ become submissive? At the creation.

When did the Christ become glorified? At the resurrection.

It is my opinion, that some folks look to the incarnation as the point, but I look at it from the start of human time.

I think that is enough for my weak brain to remark at this time.

 

[1689Dave]

I am talking to you and your post which only contained scripture which you did not give your understanding. the creeds are irrelevant to that post.

If I thought the scriptures needed my interpretations, I would give it.

 

[37818]

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” Galatians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900)
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)

How do those Scriptures answer what I had asked? Please explain step by step.

Where in the written word of God is ". . . the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, . . ." taught?

You need to understand the two major problems. 1) The word of God teaches no such thing. 2) The term "begotten" refers to a cause.

 

[1689Dave]

How do those Scriptures answer what I had asked? Please explain step by step.
You need to understand the two major problems. 1) The word of God teaches no such thind. 2) The term "begotten" is to be caused.

God is perfect (immutable), So he cannot change. The Son and Holy Spirit are unchangeably God as is the Father.

 

[37818]

God is perfect (immutable), So he cannot change. The Son and Holy Spirit are unchangeably God as is the Father.

So how does the three Persons who are the immutable God justify the notion that the Son of God was eternally caused, "begotten" by the Father?

 

[1689Dave]

So how does the three Persons who are the immutable God justify the notion that the Son of God was eternally caused, "begotten" by the Father?

You might hold to the incarnate sonship view of the trinity. Popular among AOG Pentecostals. The historic creedal version is the Eternal Sonship view of the Trinity. I.E. The Son is eternal and became the Son of man in time.

 

[agedman]

You might hold to the incarnate sonship view of the trinity. Popular among AOG Pentecostals. The historic creedal version is the Eternal Sonship view of the Trinity. I.E. The Son is eternal and became the Son of man in time.

This is as I posted with Scripture support.

The exception is WHEN the submission of the Son took place.

Most point to the time when "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." I point to before the foundations of the world were set in place, Christ was the Word already in submission to the Father by being directed by the Father to create and sustain all things.

When was such removed, two instances. At the resurrection (partial) because the Father says, "sit here while I make your enemies my footstool." and then at the point of presentation of the bride to the Father and the glorification of the Son and the bride to that final estate.

I realize that this may be different as far as timing, but I am unanimous in it.