The Eternal Relational Subordination Of God the Son

[37818]

You might hold to the incarnate sonship view of the trinity. Popular among AOG Pentecostals. The historic creedal version is the Eternal Sonship view of the Trinity. I.E. The Son is eternal and became the Son of man in time.

I hold a Biblical interpretation of the "Eternal Sonship." That He was the Son of God without being begotten or made, that He, the Son, is solely the uncaused cause of all caused things, John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-18; Revelation 3:14.

 

[HankD]

Do you think that Bible teaches it? Why/why not?

God subsists in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; co-equal and co-eternal.

 

[percho]

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Was that the result of a gamete of Mary, being enlivened by God?

gennhqen gennEthen G1080 vp Aor Pas Nom Sg n From Matt 1:20

Did that take place to a gamete of Mary? ----- Is there anything of Mary in Jesus, the Son of God?

Is David truly is the makeup of the one spoken of in Matt. 16:16,17? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Who is the Father of the Son of God? Is the Son of God also of the seed of David?

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2 Tim 2:8

Two other questions.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Had he not done so, would Jesus have been brought forth Holy? Would the redeemer have been born of woman?

 

[Dave G]

You guys speak beyond your pay grade. A whole lot of argument on things that cannot be known about a God that can only be understood by that which He reveals.

I agree.
I also don't think that "paygrade" has anything to do with it, but this does:

" And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." ( 1 Corinthians 4:6 ).

 

[HankD]

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Had he not done so, would Jesus have been brought forth Holy? Would the redeemer have been born of woman?

Yes and yes

 

[HankD]

I am an old school hardliner Trinitarian, therefore "begotten" in the case of the Son-Logos does not have a subordinate nuance associated with it rather it describes the relationship of the Son-Logos and the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1:18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Jesus-o logos temporarily laid aside the prerogatives of deity in the incarnation (kenosis) and willingly reduced himself in rank in the kenosis.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He made HIMSELF of no reputation... It was not the Father who lowered Jesus in rank but Jesus Himself.

 

[1689Dave]

I hold a Biblical interpretation of the "Eternal Sonship." That He was the Son of God without being begotten or made, that He, the Son, is solely the uncaused cause of all caused things, John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-18; Revelation 3:14.

You are not in line with the trinitarian creeds. These explain that the Son is begotten by the Father. How can the Father be a true Father, or a Son be a true Son if the Father does not beget him? In essence, you are claiming the Father is not a true Father, nor the Son a true Son.

 

[HankD]

You are not in line with the trinitarian creeds. These explain that the Son is begotten by the Father. How can the Father be a true Father, or a Son be a true Son if the Father does not beget him? In essence, you are claiming the Father is not a true Father, nor the Son a true Son.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

bosom - chest - philosophical - the heart OR essential being/source of life. John 1:18
The Son promulgates (Heb. 1:3) forth out of the essential being of the Father in eternal equality.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yahweh is not in parts. There is only One. " . . .
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; . . ."

Each One of the Trinity would be themselves fully Yahweh.

 

[37818]

I am an old school hardliner Trinitarian, therefore "begotten" in the case of the Son-Logos does not have a subordinate nuance associated with it rather it describes the relationship of the Son-Logos and the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1:18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Jesus-o logos temporarily laid aside the prerogatives of deity in the incarnation (kenosis) and willingly reduced himself in rank in the kenosis.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He made HIMSELF of no reputation... It was not the Father who lowered Jesus in rank but Jesus Himself.

The English translation "begotten" For the Greek μονογενής is based on the Latin interpretation. That Greek being from μόνος and γίνομαι.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did not always exist as a man. Was always the Son. Always was who was with God prior to creation, John 1:2. So, the man is described as Creator, John 1:10, Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ."

Created by God the Son, who then became the Man Jesus later on!

 

[37818]

Created by God the Son, who then became the Man Jesus later on!

He changed from not being man to be a man, ". . . was made flesh, . . ." -- John 1:14 < John 1:2-3. He changed how He was with God, not that He was God, John 1:9-10; Hebrews 1:2-3.

 

[HankD]

The English translation "begotten" For the Greek μονογενής is based on the Latin interpretation. That Greek being from μόνος and γίνομαι.

not necessarily our beloved Dr Cassidy who is now with the LORD debated the meaning of that word with more than one individual.

Dr Cassidy was a professor and a scholar of the Koine language.

you can probably scan the debates.

 

[37818]

Created by God the Son, who then became the Man Jesus later on!

Ah, the Son of God is the uncreated Creator, John 1:3. In the incarnation He became a creature in His own Creation, John 1:14.

 

[37818]

not necessarily our beloved Dr Cassidy who is now with the LORD debated the meaning of that word with more than one individual.

Dr Cassidy was a professor and a scholar of the Koine language.

you can probably scan the debates.

It is my understanding only in Latin and some English translations is μονογενής translated as "only begotten."

 

[1689Dave]

not necessarily our beloved Dr Cassidy who is now with the LORD debated the meaning of that word with more than one individual.

Dr Cassidy was a professor and a scholar of the Koine language.

you can probably scan the debates.

Hi Hank, I still use some of Tom's posts. What would be a good search term for his views on this?

 

[37818]

You are not in line with the trinitarian creeds. These explain that the Son is begotten by the Father. How can the Father be a true Father, or a Son be a true Son if the Father does not beget him? In essence, you are claiming the Father is not a true Father, nor the Son a true Son.

Those extra Biblical creeds are not the word of God. Effectively deny the Persons of the Trinity are equally the only true God YHWH.

The Bible nowhere teaches the Son of God being "begotten" of the Father before all worlds/ages etc.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, I still use some of Tom's posts. What would be a good search term for his views on this?

try mono* Dave, i think he transliterated it into English on occasion.

 

[37818]

How can the Father be a true Father, or a Son be a true Son if the Father does not beget him?

Logic and the Biblical truth of the written word of God. Check this out: The Son was already the Son when God said in time, not eternity, "This day I have begotten thee." It is a prophecy of the Son's bodlily resurrection from the dead. Psalms 2:7.

In essence, you are claiming the Father is not a true Father, nor the Son a true Son.

False accusation!

 

[1689Dave]

Logic and the Biblical truth of the written word of God. Check this out: The Son was already the Son when God said in time, not eternity, "This day I have begotten thee." It is a prophecy of the Son's bodlily resurrection from the dead. Psalms 2:7.


False accusation!

Do you agree with the Ecumenical creeds?