The eternal subordination of the Word.

[Yeshua1]

jesus is a man. Jesus being the Christ was a man and always God before His human birth and forever since. Now the Greek in the text as to who was "the God" and who was "God" in John 1:1 was at issue.

Jesus and the Father are both there "The God"

 

[Yeshua1]

But He was NOT a "man", which is what Jesus derived from Mary at the Incarnation! The Bible very clearly says that, "The Word BECAME flesh" (John 1:14), and "God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16), which Jesus was NOT piror to His Incarnation! The Bible does NOT tell us what "body" Jesus had in His OT appearances, but we do know it was ONLY at His Incarnation, that He BECAME flesh, which is clear that He was NOT "flesh (human)" before this time!

He was the Angel of the Lord at times before the Incarnation, but as you stated, never a man until the NT!

 

[Yeshua1]

God is NOT controlled by the limits of time, so to Him, everything is ever present! Jesus was foretold to have been "slain before the foundation of the world, but atually died on the cross in about A.D. 33. Are you suggesting that Jesus died before the world was created? this is more nonsense!

To the Truine God, already had happened, but also had to be worked out in time and space!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I never have claimed Jesus Christ was a man before His incarnation.

THIS is YOUR own words: "Jesus being the Christ was a man and God before His human birth"

 

[SavedByGrace]

Slain before the Foundation of the World is not Biblical.

Revelation 13:8, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[JamesL]

Yes, but was spoken while in the limitation of the flesh in the Incarnation though!

So you don't see a hypostatic union?
Seems you draw a very shatp dichotomy with all kinds of static

 

[SavedByGrace]

To the Truine God, already had happened, but also had to be worked out in time and space!

but, Jesus Christ did not, or could not, have died before His Incarnation. for anyone to suggest this, is in deep heresy!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Jesus and the Father are both there "The God"

Jesus is not called "The God" in John 1:1, "εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος"

 

[37818]

The Word was with "the God", and was also "the God"

Ok you proved to me you cannot read Greek. Sorry.
"ην προς τον θεον." "και θεος ην," no "ο," the.
"Was with the God." "And God was," for the text "and the Word was God."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ok you proved to me you cannot read Greek. Sorry.
"ην προς τον θεον." "και θεος ην," no "ο," the.
"Was with the God." "And God was," for the text "and the Word was God."

ah, but this does not mean that Jesus Christ is not here called "the God". In this construction in the Greek, "και θεος ην ο λογος", in the context, John could not have written, "και ο θεος ην ο λογος", as this would make "The God" and "The Word", convertable terms, which would mean that The Word, was all of The God! The previous sentence forbids this, "και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον", where John has distinguished "The Word" from "the God", by the use of the presposition, "προς", "with". In the final clause "θεος", even without the Greek article, is not "indefinite", as the whole structure of the verse demand John write this way. In verse 6 we read, "there was a man sent by θεος, whose name was John". same as in verse one, with not definite article, "ο", which is not required, because of the preposition, "παρα", "by". However, like John 1:1, no one would translate the Greek "sent by a god"!

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok you proved to me you cannot Greek, Sorry,
"ην προς τον θεον." "και θεος ην," no "ο," the.
"Was with the God." "And God was," for the text "and the Word was God."

There is no need for the Article to identify the Word as being 'The God:, as the sentence clrealy states that Father and Word are reually God!

ah, but this does not mean that Jesus Christ is not here called "the God". In this construction in the Greek, "και θεος ην ο λογος", in the context, John could not have written, "και ο θεος ην ο λογος", as this would make "The God" and "The Word", convertable terms, which would mean that The Word, was all of The God! The previous sentence forbids this, "και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον", where John has distinguished "The Word" from "the God", by the use of the presposition, "προς", "with". In the final clause "θεος", even without the Greek article, is not "indefinite", as the whole structure of the verse demand John write this way. In verse 6 we read, "there was a man sent by θεος, whose name was John". same as in verse one, with not definite article, "ο", which is not required, because of the preposition, "παρα", "by". However, like John 1:1, no one would translate the Greek "sent by a god"!

There are p[lenty of cases when describing God the Father the definite article is not used, but would we then say there the Father was not God?
The JW especially try to make a big deal on this, as "proof" Jesus was a "god", but not God!

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is no need for the Article to identify the Word as being 'The God:, as the sentence clrealy states that Father and Word are reually God!

There are p[lenty of cases when describing God the Father the definite article is not used, but would we then say there the Father was not God?
The JW especially try to make a big deal on this, as "proof" Jesus was a "god", but not God!

indeed, too much is made of the use of the Greek article with θεος, to try to show that Jesus is not God. those who use this argument do not understand the basic rules of Greek grammar!

 

[37818]

ah, but this does not mean that Jesus Christ is not here called "the God". In this construction in the Greek, "και θεος ην ο λογος", in the context, John could not have written, "και ο θεος ην ο λογος", as this would make "The God" and "The Word", convertable terms, which would mean that The Word, was all of The God! The previous sentence forbids this, "και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον", where John has distinguished "The Word" from "the God", by the use of the presposition, "προς", "with". In the final clause "θεος", even without the Greek article, is not "indefinite", as the whole structure of the verse demand John write this way. In verse 6 we read, "there was a man sent by θεος, whose name was John". same as in verse one, with not definite article, "ο", which is not required, because of the preposition, "παρα", "by". However, like John 1:1, no one would translate the Greek "sent by a god"!

Jesus is not called "The God" in John 1:1, "εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος"

 

[37818]

. . . as the sentence clrealy states that Father and Word are reually God!

What sentence clearly states that "Father and the Word?" That we who are genuine Christians do interpet that to be the case is not at issue. There are diffences between what a text "clearly" says and interpetations.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12:30 PM Pacific.

 

[SavedByGrace]

# 135 misunderstands what I have said. The Greek text does not read "The God", as the Greek does not have the definite article. However, as I have very clearly explained, in #132, when the Greek is translated into English, the meaning is not "god", but "God", being definite. Member 37818 has ignored what I have written, and continues to push falsehood!

 

[Alan Gross]

Slain before the Foundation of the World is not Biblical.

Neither is Jacob wrestling with The Lord or Joshua taking his shoes off for The Captain of The Lord of Hosts.

 

[Yeshua1]

indeed, too much is made of the use of the Greek article with θεος, to try to show that Jesus is not God. those who use this argument do not understand the basic rules of Greek grammar!

John could not use it there, as that would have meant then that Jesus and the Father are the same Person, would have Oneness doctrine!

 

[Yeshua1]

What sentence clearly states that "Father and the Word?" That we who are genuine Christians do interpet that to be the case is not at issue. There are diffences between what a text "clearly" says and interpetations.

Greek text clearly states both the Word, Jesus, and the Father are both God!

 

[Yeshua1]

# 135 misunderstands what I have said. The Greek text does not read "The God", as the Greek does not have the definite article. However, as I have very clearly explained, in #132, when the Greek is translated into English, the meaning is not "god", but "God", being definite. Member 37818 has ignored what I have written, and continues to push falsehood!

JW and Unitarians jump on this to make Jesus a "god"