The Eucharist Revisited

[dumbox1]

Hi Neal,

I lack the theological "oomph" of some of our more learned Catholic posters, but my initial reaction would be to note that the "body and blood" are Christ's glorified body (which, as you'll recall from Acts, doesn't have the same limitations as our earthly bodies -- it passes through locked doors, appears and disappears, can appear in not-immediately-recognizable forms, etc.). I guess the ultimate question re: the Real Presence is, "does God have the power to do this?" I think the answer has got to be yes.

Hope this helps; if not, I defer to later, wiser posters.

Mark

 

[GraceSaves]

Mark,

GREAT answer!

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Well, seein' how the "real flesh and blood" of Jesus ascended to the father's right hand some 40 days after he arose from the grave, It is highly suspect that we, today could be eating his "real" flesh and drinking his "real" blood. So, that leaves one with only one possibility, and that is, we use substitutionary elements that we consume today.

So, the same God that can rise from the dead and ascend into heaven cannot enact the Real Presence?! How do you decide what God can do, and what He cannot do? Is there a list somewhere?

 

[Ray Berrian]

neal4christ,

At this point in my spiritual journey I believe the bread and wine to be a memorial of His death. And I do think that it goes beyond enshrining Christ in our minds and hearts. I am sure that I have never fully understood the meaning of the Holy Communion. Just by the act of going before the Table of the Lord seems to me like a faith building experience, having partaken of His Body and blood.

We do know that His body was broken for us and that His blood was shed on our behalf. This is a colossal part of our faith. Having been obedient to His strong request to receive of His body and blood, I believe our soul and spirit is strengthened whenever we receive the elements of bread and wine. I do not think that receiving the bread and wine is received to strengthen our physical body, though in faith it might have healing effects.

When Jesus ascended into Heaven He returned there without a physical body and blood. His body was a spiritual one as has been persuasively, explained by another writer on this board.

The most important issue for me is that people personally receive Christ as Savior, [John 1:12 & John 3:16] Who is the living Bread. [John 6:35] When a person receives Christ as Savior, that one receives everything that Jesus is and has done for us. He is our spiritual life and our spirit and soul is made alive and is renewed by the Holy Spirit. It is only by receiving Christ by faith that His blood atones and covers our sins. [John 6:35] It is only through faith in Jesus that we are justified before the holiness of God. [Romans 5:1] It is by fully trusting in Christ that we receive the very nature of God within. [Romans 4:6] This new nature, the Spirit of God, resides in us forever. [I John 3:9] This 'seed' [I Peter 1:23] the Holy Spirit is incorruptible, [I Peter 1:23] meaning that nothing can erode it from our soul or spirit.

Hundreds of times I have said, 'Take and eat, this is My body which is broken for you and moments later, This is My blood----this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.

This is an awesome experience when we gather to receive of Him.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Ray --

Thank you for the admission that you have not come to fully understand the Lord's Supper. I think if we are all honest, we shall admit of the same thing. I believe there is a depth there like unto the ocean, and we are merely standing on the shore playing with a little bucket.

I think my change began when I began to understand the unitive principles of God's love for us in a covenantal relationship. In Ezekial 16 we see the covenant defined in marital terms. Our relationship with Christ/God is one of union. Therefore, if covenant defines marriage, while we do see some "legal" elements in the marriage, the truest aspect of that marriage is found not in the piece of paper from the minister or the justice of the peace, but in the relationship which takes place in the marital bed when the two become one.

And is that not what all Christians look forward to: our eternal UNION with God. It is indeed a marriage, for we are called "The Bride of Christ". If therefore God has used terminology which points to the covenant of marriage here on earth, then surely we have a right to take what we know of the marital covenant and apply it to our relationship with Him. Don't we?

The Eucharist is the foretaste of heaven. For those among us who have had their eyes opened (and I am NOT one of them, believe me!!), the mystics and seers among us, it is EXCTASY. Our flesh and our blindness keeps us from seeing and experiencing what is really happening when we go forward to unite with Him by consuming His Flesh and Blood, but it is nonetheless real. As the husband enters the wife and they become one Flesh, so our Savior enters us and we become one with Him.

I think if we could see and KNOW what happens in the Eucharist, the beauty of His love would reduce us to joyous tears of gratitude that He loves us so much.

I'm sorry Ray and others, but I want a living and real relationship with Him, just as the bride wants her husband on the wedding night. I do not want a mere bare rememberance any more than the beautiful bride would be satisfied to sit up all night and stare at her marriage certificate.

And really, that is the difference between "imputed" and legal justification, and "infused" and unitive justification.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Ray --

Thank you for the admission that you have not come to fully understand the Lord's Supper. I think if we are all honest, we shall admit of the same thing. I believe there is a depth there like unto the ocean, and we are merely standing on the shore playing with a little bucket.

I think my change began when I began to understand the unitive principles of God's love for us in a covenantal relationship. In Ezekial 16 we see the covenant defined in marital terms. Our relationship with Christ/God is one of union. Therefore, if covenant defines marriage, while we do see some "legal" elements in the marriage, the truest aspect of that marriage is found not in the piece of paper from the minister or the justice of the peace, but in the relationship which takes place in the marital bed when the two become one.

And is that not what all Christians look forward to: our eternal UNION with God. It is indeed a marriage, for we are called "The Bride of Christ". If therefore God has used terminology which points to the covenant of marriage here on earth, then surely we have a right to take what we know of the marital covenant and apply it to our relationship with Him. Don't we?

The Eucharist is the foretaste of heaven. For those among us who have had their eyes opened (and I am NOT one of them, believe me!!), the mystics and seers among us, it is EXCTASY. Our flesh and our blindness keeps us from seeing and experiencing what is really happening when we go forward to unite with Him by consuming His Flesh and Blood, but it is nonetheless real. As the husband enters the wife and they become one Flesh, so our Savior enters us and we become one with Him.

I think if we could see and KNOW what happens in the Eucharist, the beauty of His love would reduce us to joyous tears of gratitude that He loves us so much.

I'm sorry Ray and others, but I want a living and real relationship with Him, just as the bride wants her husband on the wedding night. I do not want a mere bare rememberance any more than the beautiful bride would be satisfied to sit up all night and stare at her marriage certificate.

And really, that is the difference between "imputed" and legal justification, and "infused" and unitive justification.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Amen, Brother Ed, Allelujah!

I truly wish we could share with our brothers and sisters here how glorious is the "daily bread" that God gives to us! When we renew our covenant with God, it is the very flesh and blood of His Son, Christ our Savior, that He gives us for our covenantal meal! It is indeed a foretaste of the complete unity we will have with Him at the wedding feast of the Lamb. I weep for the joy of it!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Yelsew,

Interesting.....I have never heard of the Authority understanding. Where do you see that in Scripture?

Also, do you demand proof that God exists? That is a weak argument against the Physical understanding of the Eucharist, because the same can be used against the existence of God. Can you prove to me that God exists?

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. I would like to get some insight from our Catholic brethern here as to the point that Christ's flesh is in heaven now.

If you are eating the "very real" flesh and blood of Jesus, do you not expect the Authority that Jesus Christ is to be "present" with his flesh and blood? What is the implication of eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus if not to take on the authority that Jesus is? Afterall the Body of Christ, the Church is supposed to represent Jesus to the world is it not? Why haven't you all thought this thru?

Can I prove to you that God exists? If you don't know that He exists, then to you he doesn't! No amount of proof that I offered you would convince you. I am after all merely a man.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by MikeS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Well, seein' how the "real flesh and blood" of Jesus ascended to the father's right hand some 40 days after he arose from the grave, It is highly suspect that we, today could be eating his "real" flesh and drinking his "real" blood. So, that leaves one with only one possibility, and that is, we use substitutionary elements that we consume today.

So, the same God that can rise from the dead and ascend into heaven cannot enact the Real Presence?! How do you decide what God can do, and what He cannot do? Is there a list somewhere?

</font>[/QUOTE]Therein Lies the difference between God and Man. Man has limitations and to prove that you should cut a pound of flesh from your body and throw it as hard as you can against the wall if it passes through without damage to it or the wall, then you are God! If it does not pass through then you need a little more work done on you.

Did Jesus not rise from the dead in "bodily form"? Was the place they laid His dead body found to be unoccupied? Did the angels at the grave not tell his followers that "he is not here, for he has risen? Did Jesus not tell Mary, [John 20:17] "Jesus said to her, `Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." What was she clinging to? What was Thomas reaction to touching Jesus? What did he touch?

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
P.S. I would like to get some insight from our Catholic brethern here as to the point that Christ's flesh is in heaven now.

Neal,

I'm not the sharpest theological knife in the Catholic drawer here, and I can't draw you the equation that shows how Christ's flesh can be in heaven and here on earth as well. I do know this. If Christ chooses to do this thing, He can do it. And I know that He has told us, in the Scriptures and in Sacred Tradition, that this is what He has chosen to do.

The Catholic Mass should be understood as an event where heaven and earth come together. When we celebrate Mass we celebrate with all the angels and saints in heaven. We go before the very altar of heaven, through intercession of the priest who acts in the person of Christ. We partake of the very sacrifice of Christ, the same sacrifice He offers as High Priest to the Father. In the Eucharist there is no "here" and "there." There is only heaven, made present on earth through Sacramental means. Such is God's love for us!

 

[BobRyan]

Here we have some "hisotoric evidence" of what the saint closes to the living Apostle were "thinking at the time".

Notice that these historic documents were penned within 40 years of the actual life of Christ.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
John 1 starts with "The Word became Flesh" - A symbol for a fact.

John 6 starts using symbolism - with "My flesh is food" followed by "The literal flesh profits nothing-- The Words I Speak ARE life and spirit".

In John 6 Christ references the symbol of Deut 5 - namely that the bread that came down out of heaven - is symbolic for the fact that "man does not live by Bread alone but by every WORD" that proceeds from the mouth of God.

In Matt 16 Christ uses the same symbol of bread for teaching and in the conlusion it says "He did not say beware of the leaven of BREAD but of the Teaching" ...

So by the time they got to the Last Supper the symbol had been spelled out for them - in triplicate already.

In John 10 He says "I am the door" - and again "I am the good shepherd" - in John 15 "I am the vine". He did not say "I am like a vine symbolically" or "I am like a door in symbol".

However - the meaning is clear - and they had to have understood this from the very beginning.

Well - that's all the history I have time for now.

But notice - it is "the most ancient" source that we have - and it shows symbols - in use without a doubt.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bob Ryan,

You offered a listing of symbols. Were you saying then that when Jesus said, 'This is My body, take and eat and this is My blood, as oft as ye drink it do it in remembrance of Me,' meaning that He meant it symbolically?

To me, a remembrance suggests a memoral of His death and endless life.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bob Ryan,

You offered a listing of symbols. Were you saying then that when Jesus said, 'This is My body, take and eat and this is My blood, as oft as ye drink it do it in remembrance of Me,' meaning that He meant it symbolically?

To me, a remembrance suggests a memoral of His death and endless life.

Ray - I am saying that He had already established the "symbol of bread" for "Teaching" in Matt 16 AND the sybmol of "Flesh" for "My Word that gives Spirit and Life" in John 6 AND in John 1.

AND He established the symbol of bread coming down from heaven as "meaning" the lesson "man does not live by bread alone but by every WORD that comes from the mouth of God..." Deut 8:3

And He had established the practice of applying symbols to Himself by saying "I AM" the door (John 10) and "I AM the Vine" (John 15) so that when He said "My Flesh IS food" - or "This bread is My body" it was by then - pretty obvious.

There is a pattern of sybmols all the way through his ministry teaching.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[GraceSaves]

The vote is in: Bob cannot answer the question!

Bob, the question posed to you is: outside of Scripture (because Scripture does not go into detail about the practice of this ritual in the Church accept in one place in the letters of Paul), please demonstrate that the early Christian Church believed in a symbolic Lord's Supper. It should be easy for the early Church, taking off just after the pages of Scripture. And, if you believe that the Church quickily fell into apostacy, how long did it take for the truth to be uncovered again?

Please...answer him. I dare you.

 

[neal4christ]

Ray,

Thank-you for your input and your honesty. I truly appreciate it.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Can I prove to you that God exists? If you don't know that He exists, then to you he doesn't!

So you believe that something or someone must be perceived in order to exist? Hmmm.....I don't think it matters what someone perceives. God is exists outside of a person and independently. So, whether I know he exists or not, it doesn't really matter. (By the way, I was not asking you to prove God exists to me as though I was doubting his existence.

My point is that we can't prove God exists, as you admit. So can you hold it against Catholics that they believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, even though they can't "prove" it?)

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Okay, Bob, we are not moving forward one bit. You are still dodging. Or is your answer that the Early Church forgot what the meaning of the Lord's Supper was? Either you are dodging or that is your answer.

By the way, since I have seen you bring this up a couple of times concerning the flesh profiting nothing, did Christ really have to physically die? A simple yes or no will do.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

The Catholic Mass should be understood as an event where heaven and earth come together.

Funny, I am reading a book about that right now: The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

I am reading a book about that right now: The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth.

And I have to take off right now for a graduate night class (Scripture, Liturgy, and Eschatology) taught by the author of that book. I highly encourage you to devour the endnotes (we had to read The Lamb's Supper for this class, but I had already read it twice, so I skipped over it).

 

[CatholicConvert]

Heaven and earth united.

Well, that would be just like the way it was in Eden, right?

Isn't that what the redemption of the world is all about?

Seems to me that we are getting a little foretaste of Heaven right here on earth, if we have "eyes to see". After all, won't we be united with our Lord in Heaven in a manner similar to the "one flesh" experience of the bride and groom? One yet separate. Together yet individual.

Which sounds a bit like the Blessed Trinity to me.

(Don't make ANY doctrine out of what I just said.....just thinkin' out loud a bit -- ponderin' ya know?)

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Heaven and earth united.

Well, that would be just like the way it was in Eden, right?

Isn't that what the redemption of the world is all about?

Seems to me that we are getting a little foretaste of Heaven right here on earth, if we have "eyes to see". After all, won't we be united with our Lord in Heaven in a manner similar to the "one flesh" experience of the bride and groom? One yet separate. Together yet individual.

Which sounds a bit like the Blessed Trinity to me.

(Don't make ANY doctrine out of what I just said.....just thinkin' out loud a bit -- ponderin' ya know?)

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Absolutely, Brother Ed! We won't just be God's good buddies in heaven, but we will abide in Him, and He in us, and we will partake of the Divine Nature! Clearly (to me!) we are each to partake in the Trinity as much as our nature will allow, because that is the perfect relationship between those who love. And I know it's going to blow our socks off!