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The Extent of Corruption

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
You in effect...
Quote stacking. More noise. None of the quotations you provided address the point I raised. My statement was simple: if someone claims Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen support a particular theological position, they must provide documentation for that specific claim.

Your quotations concern Burgon’s view of the Textus Receptus, which I did not mention. They do not demonstrate that Burgon rejected a preserved stream, nor do they show that he supported your position.

If you wish to assert that Burgon held your view, please provide direct quotations where Burgon states it. Summaries, impressions, and labels are not substitutes for documentation.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Summaries, impressions, and labels are not substitutes for documentation.
That seems to be all you offer. You try to substitute the label "quote stacking" as a diversion away from your lack of clear, consistent, sound evidence for your unproven declarations. Perhaps your misinformed impressions of your preserved stream are not substitutes for documentation.

Are you actually claiming that the Textus Receptus editions are not part of your preserved stream?

My view is clearly much closer to the stated view of John William Burgon than your view is. His statements are support for my view. John William Burgon supported and advocated revision and correction of the Textus Receptus and revision of the KJV. Your posts do not suggest that you would agree with the statements that I quoted from John William Burgon.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
You’ve repeated your summaries, but you still haven’t provided a single quotation from Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen that matches your claims. I’m asking for documented citations, not impressions. Until you provide those, your assertions remain unsubstantiated.
No my facts are correct. Your views are false. You have not read the 4 Scholars works. You clearly do not know what they believed. I have read their works. They are brilliant scholars. Not one of them believed the Comma was genuine. Not one of them thought the KJV perfectly preserved. Not one of them thought the Textus Receptus perfectly preserved. They know the Comma is not original because they are learned Scholars . They know it is not in the Greek Originals. All scholars know it came from the Latin, not the Greek. The Greek Byzantine Manuscripts do not have the Comma. The Original Greek does not contain the Comma. The Greek Byzantine Manuscripts do not contain the Comma. That's why the Comma does not appear in Pickering , or any Greek Byzantine Text. It's an intrusion from the Non original Latin manuscripts. All scholars know this. Pickering, Scrivener, Burgon, Van Bruggen are no exception. You do not know it because you have not read these brilliant scholars for yourself. You read non-scholarly Onlyist . Read Pickering for yourself. Read the Revision Revised by Burgon, or read his Greek Text of Matthew where he recommends readings from the Byzantine Manuscripts to improve the Textus Receptus. In other words, clear errors in the Textus Receptus he corrected and knew the need. Read anything from any of those Four and you will learn not to be an Onlyist.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
You’ve repeated your summaries, but you still haven’t provided a single quotation from Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen that matches your claims. I’m asking for documented citations, not impressions. Until you provide those, your assertions remain unsubstantiated.
You are wrong. Everything I said was a fact everything that you have said is wrong. I know that I am correct because I have read all four Scholars. You have not read them for yourself. If they believed the Comma they would have defended it. But they did not defend the Comma in their works. Real scholarship know. If you read the 4 brilliant scholars for yourself you would know .
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you for providing actual citations. This is the kind of page‑level documentation I have been asking for. Pickering’s footnote explains his Family 35 textual reasoning, but it does not support the theological claims Conan has been making about preservation, nor does it match his characterizations of Burgon, Scrivener, or van Bruggen.

Regarding the ChatGPT material:
ChatGPT does not locate pages in Pickering’s Greek New Testament unless the user supplies the document. What it produced was a reconstruction based on publicly available summaries of Pickering’s footnote. That is why it could not give a page number for the 791‑page Greek volume. So the ChatGPT output is not a verification of Conan’s claims; it is simply a restatement of Pickering’s textual footnote.

Regarding Pickering himself: His footnote explains why the Comma is absent from Family 35. It is a textual argument, not a doctrinal one. He does not call the Comma a Latin invention, he does not deny the preservation of Scripture, and he does not describe the Textus Receptus as “full of errors” in the sense Conan has been using the term. His comments are limited to the manuscript tradition within his Family 35 theory.

Regarding the broader issue: My original point was simple. If someone wants to claim that Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen support a particular theological position, they need to provide direct quotations. Summaries, impressions, and labels are not substitutes for documentation. Your citation of Pickering’s footnote is helpful, but it does not establish the theological claims Conan has been asserting.

In short: Pickering’s textual explanation is clear. Conan’s theological claims remain unsubstantiated. And this is exactly why I asked for page‑level evidence.

To summarize Pickering’s actual footnote in plain terms:
He says that the Comma appears in five late Greek manuscripts, that two of those appear copied from the Textus Receptus, and that manuscript 629 is too different to have been the TR’s Greek source. He concludes that the TR’s Greek exemplar is either lost or Latin‑derived, and that the shorter reading makes sense within the Family 35 tradition. This is textual criticism, not theology. He does not say that the Comma is a Latin invention, that it is doctrinally false, corrupt, impossible, or that the TR is full of errors, or that the KJV is not preserved Scripture. He simply says that Family 35 does not contain the Comma. That is all.
He denied the validity of Johannine Comma being in the originals.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Seeing it’s called the preserved stream why were they restricted to using five Erasmus editions, Beza’s, and Stephanus’ works. If it’s the preserved stream, why not use mss from the 8th century? The 6th? 10th? 5th? 11th?
This is the THIRD TIME I have asked you to show me where you addressed this? I cannot find it and hope you will provide a link to the post where you did. TIA
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From me: Quotes from Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen, where they stated the Textus Receptus was not free from errors?

ChatGPT:

Did Burgon, Scrivener, Pickering, or van Bruggen Believe the Textus Receptus Was Perfect?

A common assumption is that defenders of the Textus Receptus (TR) regarded the TR itself as a perfect, error-free Greek text. However, the writings of several prominent defenders of the traditional text show a more nuanced position.

The important distinction is between defending the traditional/Byzantine text against the critical text and claiming that every reading in the printed Textus Receptus is incapable of correction.

1. John William Burgon

Burgon is perhaps the clearest example.

In The Revision Revised (1881), Burgon explicitly rejected the idea that he regarded the Received Text as perfect:

“We do not, by any means, claim perfection for the Received Text. We entertain no extravagant notions on this subject.”

He then states:

“Again and again we shall have occasion to point out … that the Textus Receptus needs correction.”

Burgon therefore defended the Received Text against the Westcott-Hort revision while simultaneously acknowledging that the TR itself was not perfect.

He makes the point even more strongly elsewhere:

“I am not defending the ‘Textus Receptus’ … That it is without authority to bind, nay that it calls for skillful revision in every part, is freely admitted.”

This is important because Burgon is sometimes portrayed as though he believed the TR itself was an absolutely perfect Greek text. His own statements do not support that characterization.

Burgon's position was essentially that the traditional text was vastly preferable to the newly constructed critical text, while the particular printed TR still contained readings that could and should be corrected.

2. Wilbur N. Pickering

Pickering is similarly explicit.

In discussing the Textus Receptus, Pickering wrote:

“I plainly state that the TR will probably require correction in over a thousand places.”

He also wrote:

“When all this evidence is in I believe the Textus Receptus will be found to differ from the original in something over a thousand places.”

Pickering nevertheless regarded these differences as largely minor and maintained a strong preference for the Byzantine/Majority textual tradition.

In another discussion he described the TR this way:

“The Textus Receptus was … a good text. It's not a perfect text, but it's a good text.”

Thus Pickering clearly did not identify the TR with a perfectly preserved, error-free Greek text.

His position was closer to:

The TR is substantially good and represents the traditional text, but it is not identical in every detail with the original text and requires correction in numerous places.

3. Jakob van Bruggen

Van Bruggen likewise distinguished between the Textus Receptus and the broader Byzantine/Church text.

In The Ancient Text of the New Testament, he states that the TR has:

“shortcomings”

and argues that it should be corrected according to the Church/Byzantine text.

He also makes the important statement:

“Pleading for the return to the known Church text certainly does not mean that this textus receptus must be canonized.”

This is a particularly useful quotation because it shows that van Bruggen did not regard the TR as a sacred or untouchable form of the Greek New Testament.

His argument was essentially that the printed TR was a historically important representative of the traditional text, but that it could contain departures from the broader Byzantine textual tradition and therefore could be corrected.

4. F. H. A. Scrivener

Scrivener requires a little more qualification.

I would not attribute to Scrivener the same kind of explicit statement found in Burgon or Pickering without further qualification. Nevertheless, his textual-critical work demonstrates that he did not regard any particular printed edition of the TR as an absolutely perfect text.

Scrivener documented numerous differences among the various editions of the TR—Stephanus, Beza, Erasmus, and others.

He also recognized the existence of printing errors in editions of the Greek New Testament, writing:

“Even several impressions derived from the same standard edition … differ from their archetype and from each other, in errors of the press which no amount of care or diligence has yet been able to get rid of.”

Furthermore, Scrivener's own Greek New Testament was not simply a reproduction of Stephanus, Beza, or another TR edition. His 1894 edition was constructed to represent the Greek text underlying the King James Version.

So while Scrivener is not as useful for an explicit quotation saying “the Textus Receptus is not perfect,” his actual textual work demonstrates that he recognized textual variation and the need to distinguish between the various printed forms of the TR.

The important distinction

The evidence from these men illustrates an important distinction:

Defending the Traditional/Byzantine Text ≠ claiming that the printed Textus Receptus is perfect.

Burgon, Pickering, and van Bruggen all strongly defended the traditional textual tradition while acknowledging that the TR itself could contain readings requiring correction.

In short:

Burgon: Explicitly denied perfection for the Received Text and said that the TR “needs correction.”

Pickering: Explicitly stated that the TR would probably require correction in more than 1,000 places.

van Bruggen: Described shortcomings in the TR and rejected the idea that it should be “canonized.”

Scrivener: Recognized variation among the TR editions and textual/printing errors, although his wording is less useful for the specific claim that “the TR is not perfect.”

Therefore, if someone argues that all traditional-text defenders believed the Textus Receptus itself was a perfect and error-free Greek edition, these primary-source statements present a significant problem for that claim.

The more historically accurate position is that many defenders of the TR considered it to preserve the traditional textual stream substantially better than the modern critical text, while still acknowledging that the printed TR could contain errors, variants, or readings requiring correction.
 
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Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
The words in italics are only found in five late Greek manuscripts (less than 1% of the total) and part of the Latin tradition, from which they came
Your statement does not match what Pickering wrote. Pickering listed five Greek manuscripts containing the Comma, but he did not claim those were the only Greek witnesses. There are additional Greek marginal notes, lectionary evidence, and patristic citations.

Pickering also did not say the Comma “came from the Latin tradition.” He said the TR’s form of the Comma likely reflects Latin influence. That is not the same claim.
 
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