The Extent of the Atonement

[The Biblicist]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have had to suffer more intensely (full wrath of God) if he had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race



3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

No its not, the Value of Christ's Blood is proportioned unto the sins of the Elect, and thats it.

His Sufferings is called a cup Lk 22:42

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Just as the wicked will suffer the Divine Wrath proportionate to their personal deservings as Per Lk 12:47-48

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Thats the Divine Standard in meting out Justice, according to ones works.

Now that principle is applied to the Punishment of the Elect in Christ their substitute, so much so Isa writes Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Now to say that His Suffering was meted out beyond the Elect is False speculation, that is your very first lie right there !

The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.

Pure devilish speculation !

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have had to suffer more intensely (full wrath of God) if he had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race



3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

the death of jesus was sufficient to have secured the salvation for all sinners, as it was of infinite worth, as He was God, but that His death ONLY secured the actual salvation of those Elected and chosen by God the Ftaher, those predestined to become the children of God!

the extent of the atonement limited to those whom were the chosen and elected of God!

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



No its not, the Value of Christ's Blood is proportioned unto the sins of the Elect, and thats it.

His Sufferings is called a cup Lk 22:42

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Just as the wicked will suffer the Divine Wrath proportionate to their personal deservings as Per Lk 12:47-48

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Thats the Divine Standard in meting out Justice, according to ones works.

Now that principle is applied to the Punishment of the Elect in Christ their substitute, so much so Isa writes Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Now to say that His Suffering was meted out beyond the Elect is False speculation, that is your very first lie right there !



Pure devilish speculation !

Your answer is rediculous. Wouldn't you agree that the suffering of Christ at least equals the greatest wrath suffered by any individual sinner in hell? For example, if Christ suffered the extent equal to a billion elect would not that at least equal the greatest suffering by any human that does go to hell?

He could not of been any more righteous for one or for all human beings to be justified and he could not have suffered any less wrath necessary to redeem the greatest sinner in hell.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Your answer is rediculous.

Why don't you use spell check ? Lol :tonofbricks:

But sorry, no it is not ridiculous ! Its showing God works according to just weights and balances !

Prov 16:11

11 A just weight and balance are the Lord's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Its a principle 2 Tim 4:14

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Rev 2:23

And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In like fashion, God Punished Christ according to the evil works of all the Elect of God according to His Divine Checks and balances of their sins !

Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

What you teach is human wisdom, not of God ! lol !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib


But sorry, no it is not ridiculous ! Its showing God works according to just weights and balances !

!

Christ is but ONE man and if ONE man suffered the extent of eternity and the intensity of billions than that ONE man suffered MORE intensly than any other one man in hell would ever suffer.

Second, Christ is more than man but is GOD and for God to suffer eternal wrath AT ALL is far more extensive than the total combined suffering of all creation in hell.

If your logic were true than he would also have to provide a righteousness that equalled the rightousness of billions conversley to EQUAL justice on the postive side of the scale.

The fact that he was "deity" made his sufferings far greater than all the sufferings of total creatures if they had all been sent to hell because FINITE can never equal INFINITE and sinners are of NEGATIVE value which can never equal POSITIVE value and Christ is both sinless man and infinite God and thus POSITIVE value.

Therefore, according to JUSTICE, no amount of intense suffering by any amount of FINITE creatures could ever JUSTLY EQUAL the suffering of a sinless man who is INFINITE God. Hence, where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound!

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have had to suffer more intensely (full wrath of God) if he had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race because suffering as Deity is far more extensive than if every creature went to hell. The fact that he was "deity" made his sufferings far greater than all the sufferings of total creatures if they had all been sent to hell because FINITE can never equal INFINITE and sinners are of NEGATIVE value which can never equal POSITIVE value and Christ is both sinless man and infinite God and thus POSITIVE value and his sufferings INFINITE before the scales of justice.
c. Therefore, according to JUSTICE, no amount of intense suffering by any amount of FINITE creatures could ever JUSTLY EQUAL the suffering of a sinless man who is INFINITE God. Hence, where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound!




3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

Revised above in large bold.

 

[billwald]

"The VALUE," I call this the "book keeper" theory of the atonement, a "Christian" version of blind justice. Jesus' payment over balances the sins of the world.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Christ is but ONE man and if ONE man suffered the extent of eternity and the intensity of billions than that ONE man suffered MORE intensly than any other one man in hell would ever suffer.

Christ suffered as God Man the Eternity of Punishment for all the Father gave Him, His Punishment was meted out according to their Iniquties, that is what Scripture says !

Isa 53:6

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All that you are talking is humanism and carnal rationalizations. You are adding to the written word !

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have had to suffer more intensely (full wrath of God) if he had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race



3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

Still stands!

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have had to suffer more intensely (full wrath of God) if he had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race



3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

I didn't get too much response on this thread so here it is again.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a view that I found. What is wrong with it? I imagine both Calvinists and Arminians will not like it! That would be a plus for it!

The Atonement of Christ​

1. The VALUE of Christ’s shed blood is sufficient for all men.

a. The same blood would had to be shed (unto death) to save one sinner or every sinner in the world.
b. Hence, the limitation is not in the value of Christ's blood



2. The EXTENT of Christ’s passive obedience or sufferings is sufficient for all men.

a. He would not have had to suffer any longer (eternity) if He had suffered for one or for all of Adam’s race
b. He would not have to suffer any more intensity of God's Wrath to save the worst of sinners since it was intense to save all the elect.


3. The EXTENT of Christ’s active obedience or righteousness is sufficient for all men.

a. His righteousness could not increase or decrease as there is but one constant standard God demands (perfection). Perfection is required if He saved one or all of Adam’s race
b. He would still have to be “without sin” to satisfy God’s law for one or for all of Adam’s race.



4. The Gospel OFFER of the Atonement is based upon its SUFFICIENCY rather than upon its application

a. It is offered through the gospel alone – Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 5:18-19
b. It is offered conditionally “whosoever will” – Jn. 3:16
c. It is offered universally wherever the gospel is preached – Isa. 45:22
d. The Gospel is God’s POWER of salvation to all who believe it.



5. The DESIGN of the Atonement

a. God designed it to be sufficient for one person as much as for the whole world
b. God designed it to be Efficient to save all who meet the conditions of the gospel
c. The atonement is God’s PROVISION to save all who believe the Gospel.



6. The DESIGN of Election

a. God foresaw universal rejection of the gospel by mankind – Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:9-10
b. God in His grace determined to save a great number of these rejectors (the elect) in spite of their foreseen resistance while allowing others (non-elect) to freely continue in their rejection
c. Election is God’s choice to secure the voluntary obedience of the elect to the terms of the gospel thus making the atonement efficiently applicable only to the elect.
d. Election is God’s PURPOSE to save a certain number of Adam’s race


7. The Covenant Work of the Holy Spirit

a. To convict the world of sin
b. To secure the willingness of the elect to repent and believe
c. To apply the atonement to the elect.

The above view of the atonement hamonizes with the necessary essentials of both the limited and universal views of atonement.

 

[Yeshua1]

The above view of the atonement hamonizes with the necessary essentials of both the limited and universal views of atonement.

But didin't jesus die as real atonement/propiation JSUT for the sinners that God had determined and chosen would be saved by it? Definite atonement for some, not potentially for all?

 

[The Biblicist]

But didin't jesus die as real atonement/propiation JSUT for the sinners that God had determined and chosen would be saved by it? Definite atonement for some, not potentially for all?

The atonement must be applied. he obtained the finished work of redemption but He did not apply it. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and he does it through regenerative faith.

 

[SovereignMercy]

The "Biblicist" shows he's not biblical.

 

[The Biblicist]

The "Biblicist" shows he's not biblical.

Well, my friend that is easy to say but quite another thing to show isn't it?

 

[Yeshua1]

The atonement must be applied. he obtained the finished work of redemption but He did not apply it. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and he does it through regenerative faith.

true, as unless we place faith into the person and work of Christ, we are not saved, but wasn't the intent of God was to have salvation provided for some, NOT ALL?

 

[The Biblicist]

true, as unless we place faith into the person and work of Christ, we are not saved, but wasn't the intent of God was to have salvation provided for some, NOT ALL?

Well, that is a sticky subject alright.

The sacrifice of Christ is infinite in value because he is infinite. The totality of creation remains finite and finite can never equal what is infinite. If there are any restrictions it must be in regard to elective application not the infinite value of the provision.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, that is a sticky subject alright.

The sacrifice of Christ is infinite in value because he is infinite. The totality of creation remains finite and finite can never equal what is infinite. If there are any restrictions it must be in regard to elective application not the infinite value of the provision.

Got to go to our grandchildrens thanksgiving party at school. So If I dont respond it is because I am not here.

BTW I hardly ever turn my computer off when I am away and that is why my light stays on.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, that is a sticky subject alright.

The sacrifice of Christ is infinite in value because he is infinite. The totality of creation remains finite and finite can never equal what is infinite. If there are any restrictions it must be in regard to elective application not the infinite value of the provision.

yes, while the value of the sacrifice was infinite, as it was God dying upon the Cross, the extent of the actual atonement/provision was amde for the sins of thoswe whom God would chose to be saved by it!