I thought that was what I said. God's purpose of election determines it application.
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The Extent of the Atonement
- Thread starter The Biblicist
- Start date
I thought that was what I said. God's purpose of election determines it application.
SovereignMercy
Member
Definition #2 of Atonement from Websters dictionary.
2: the reconciliation of God and mankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.
Atonement by definition can only apply to the elect.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
The following passage from 1 John is often used inappropriately, as evidence that Jesus died for everyone. But read the next passage from Revelation and you will see what he means by the whole world... not everyone, but the elect from every tongue, tribe, people and nation.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth."
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.
Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Bib, believe the bible, not your man made definitions.
2: the reconciliation of God and mankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.
Atonement by definition can only apply to the elect.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
The following passage from 1 John is often used inappropriately, as evidence that Jesus died for everyone. But read the next passage from Revelation and you will see what he means by the whole world... not everyone, but the elect from every tongue, tribe, people and nation.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth."
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.
Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Bib, believe the bible, not your man made definitions.
Tom Butler
New Member
The typical non-Calvinist view of the atonement can be summarized as follows:
Christ's death on the cross was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect (or those who believe).
Here are a couple of problems with this view.
One, it provides no real satisfaction of God's justice. If one insists that it does, then we have God's punishing some for whom justice has been satisfied.
Okay, one might say, God actually suffered for the sins of all men, so the lost will be punished only for unbelief. That, of course, leaves those who've never heard the gospel nothing to suffer for. How can they believe on someone of whom they've never heard?
But wait. Wasn't the sin of unbelief also atoned for?
Well, yes, one says, but only for those who believe. Uh, you mean my unbelief from the time I first heard the gospel to the time the Lord saved me?
Yep, that unbelief. It had to be atoned for, too.
So, Jesus suffered also for the sin of unbelief? Even the unbelief of those who never believe?
Well, of course. Jesus died for all. So salvation could be made available for all.
So, the atonement was for all sin, including unbelief.
Well, uh, yes.
So,those who are in Hell are there with nothing to suffer for? Or else, their sins are twice paid for? Is that it?
Yes. No, wait a minute. Those in Hell deserve to be there.
Then his suffering for the unbelief of all was not sufficient to save all.
Yes, it was sufficient. But you have to believe.
So, faith and repentance have to make up for what was lacking in Jesus' death, right?
No, there is nothing meritorious about repentance and faith in salvation.
Except that they are part of the salvation process, right.
Yes. Uh, no. Wait a minute. Yes.
So, if you have to add repentance and faith, does that mean that salvation is not wholly of God's grace?
No, I don't mean that at all. Look, I'd love to continue this conversation, but I got to go.
Okay, later.
=====================
Let me throw a couple more things into the discussion.
Was God obligated to provide redemption for all men without exception?
If yes, does that exclude grace from the atonement?
Does God owe an offer of redemption to all without exception?
If yes, why has he not made sure that every person heard that offer through hearing the gospel?
If grace and obligation are mutually exclusive, where does that leave us?
That ought to be enough to chew on for a while.
Christ's death on the cross was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect (or those who believe).
Here are a couple of problems with this view.
One, it provides no real satisfaction of God's justice. If one insists that it does, then we have God's punishing some for whom justice has been satisfied.
Okay, one might say, God actually suffered for the sins of all men, so the lost will be punished only for unbelief. That, of course, leaves those who've never heard the gospel nothing to suffer for. How can they believe on someone of whom they've never heard?
But wait. Wasn't the sin of unbelief also atoned for?
Well, yes, one says, but only for those who believe. Uh, you mean my unbelief from the time I first heard the gospel to the time the Lord saved me?
Yep, that unbelief. It had to be atoned for, too.
So, Jesus suffered also for the sin of unbelief? Even the unbelief of those who never believe?
Well, of course. Jesus died for all. So salvation could be made available for all.
So, the atonement was for all sin, including unbelief.
Well, uh, yes.
So,those who are in Hell are there with nothing to suffer for? Or else, their sins are twice paid for? Is that it?
Yes. No, wait a minute. Those in Hell deserve to be there.
Then his suffering for the unbelief of all was not sufficient to save all.
Yes, it was sufficient. But you have to believe.
So, faith and repentance have to make up for what was lacking in Jesus' death, right?
No, there is nothing meritorious about repentance and faith in salvation.
Except that they are part of the salvation process, right.
Yes. Uh, no. Wait a minute. Yes.
So, if you have to add repentance and faith, does that mean that salvation is not wholly of God's grace?
No, I don't mean that at all. Look, I'd love to continue this conversation, but I got to go.
Okay, later.
=====================
Let me throw a couple more things into the discussion.
Was God obligated to provide redemption for all men without exception?
If yes, does that exclude grace from the atonement?
Does God owe an offer of redemption to all without exception?
If yes, why has he not made sure that every person heard that offer through hearing the gospel?
If grace and obligation are mutually exclusive, where does that leave us?
That ought to be enough to chew on for a while.
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SovereignMercy
Member
Good post Tom!
Yes, the reasoning of Tom was very good. I have to admit this is one issue that has bothered me for years and I have stuggled with.
There is no question in my mind that God's intent behind election was to secure that elect people for His glory, and the atonement by design satisfied all of God's demands for that people to be saved through the elected means of being set apart by the work of the Holy Spirit and beleif of the truth. Election is inclusive of both satisfaction and securing this people of God (2 Thes. 2:13-14).
However, simply because the blood of Christ was EFFICIENT in obtaining what it was designed to satisfy and secure according to God's elective purpose does not mean its inherent infinite value is limited by a finite objective. Only the elective design limits its finite objective but no finite objective can ever limits its inherent infinite value. Gold can be used to purchase only a gallon of water but that does not mean it is not also equal in value to purchase 100 gallons of water. If the value of one gallon of water is set to be the value of the gold then efficiency equals sufficiency. However, I do not believe that a finite value has been set to equal the infinite value of the blood of Christ.
Election "to salvation" (2 Thes. 2:13) tells me that the logical order within God's eternal decree shows that election is God's logical response to the fall as sinless humans need no salvation. This also tells me that sin does not originate with God but with man. Furthermore, this means that election is God's gracious response to fallen mankind that if left to their own depraved desires would never choose to be saved from sin (Psa.14:2-3) but is God's predetermination to save some in spite of universal rejection while justly allowing the remainder to follow the dictates of their own desires.
Hence, the atonement secures the satisfaction and securement of the elect without limiting its inherent infinite value and the gospel is proclaimed on the basis of its infinite value which does no injustice to God's grace of election and only secures greater judgement upon sinners who refuse the gospel.
I believe the gospel is presented to all men whether elect or non-elect on the basis of the infinite value of the atonement while the securing of the gospel promises by the Holy Spirit are secured by the limitations of elective design. Just as I believe the love of God is universal in some senses but special in regard to elective salvation.
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think that due to some of them realising that we would have jesus death provoding reconciliation for all by the propiation, yet some still get to hell despite that, and refuing to go to Universalism, then stuck with Non penal substitionary atonement theories as last resort!
did god ntend for ALL to be actually possibility of being saved by Death of christ, or intended ONLY for those whom he foreknew and predestinedto be saved by it?
Election is "to" salvation and therefore in the eternal decree of God, election presupposes the fall of man into sin as there is no need for salvation of sinless men.
Hence, God is perfectly just to allow all to freely go on their way to hell and merciful to save any in spite of themselves.
Therefore, election secures the salvation of some unwilling sinners among the mass of all unwilling sinners who equally deserve wrath and none deserve or seek grace.
The atonement secures less than what it by nature is sufficient to secure. What it does secure is due to elective design without deminishing what it could secure by mere inherent infinite value.
The gospel is preached UNIVERSALLY on the basis of its inherent infinite sufficiency while actual salvation is based upon its elective limited sufficiency.
So we are commanded to preach/proclaim Gospel message to all, and the Holy spirit will redeem out SOME who have been appointed to receive eternal life in christ?
That is precisely the distinction between the GENERAL and EFFECTUAL call.
Tom Butler
New Member
A. W. Pink addressed the relationship between sufficiency and efficiency of the atonement:
Wherever the scriptures speak of the sufficiency of the Gospel it never places any other limitation than the demands that "whoseover" repents and believes shall receive eternal life.
Wherever the scriptures speak of the sufficiency of redemption it is in the context of efficiency.
So how do you reconcile the two?
I reconcile it by basing the universality of the gospel on the infinite value of the blood while sufficiency equals efficiency upon the elective application of the blood.
Tom Butler
New Member
Pinks reconciling is simpler:
It's called Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption.
I didn't reject Pink's definition but included it. I think Pink simply does not go far enough. In regard to election suffiency equals efficiency but in regard to the value of the atonement finite efficiency never deminishes its infinite value.
Or "definite" atonement.
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Tom, I think there must be a distinction drawn between the Purchase of the elect and taking possession of or the application to the elect. The blood was shed at the altar in the temple but application was a completely different aspect. Objectively Christ purchased the salvation of the elect by his own Person and work that was completed in the resurrection and then ascension into the temple in heaven. However, the subjective purchase had to do with actual application and possession.
Just as God's Purpose must be distinguished between the carrying out of His purpose ("I have purposed it, I will do it" - Isa. 46:11b). so also must the redemption by the blood of Christ be distinguished from the Holy Spirits taking possession of that which was redeemed.
Hence, I was objectively justified by the cross but I was not subjectively justified until the Holy Spirit applied the cross to me through regenerative faith.
I was justified by eternal purpose before the world began. I was justified objectively by the blood of Christ on the cross and his resurrection. I was justified subjectively by regenerative faith in the blood of Christ.
Tom Butler
New Member
Brother Biblicist, I think I agree with you, but let me study your comments some more.
If you mean that in the mind of God believers were purchased from eternity, but actually, in time, in the death and resurrection--I agree.
If you mean that the purchase was planned from eternity, but in time, the Spirit illuminated, convicted, drew and regenerated--I agree.
If this is not what you're saying, I'll rely on you to set me straight.
If you mean that in the mind of God believers were purchased from eternity, but actually, in time, in the death and resurrection--I agree.
If you mean that the purchase was planned from eternity, but in time, the Spirit illuminated, convicted, drew and regenerated--I agree.
If this is not what you're saying, I'll rely on you to set me straight.
there is NO possibility that those elected out by God will refuse to accept jesus, as his death purchased them back, was a propiation made before god on their behalf, and yet to be 'official' they will receive him and believe!
We see it eye to eye.
