Or this sequence; By the faith of Jesus the Christ ----> and the grace of God---> Unto justification--->and sanctified by the Spirit unto belief---Unto salvation.
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The fallen nature of Man
- Thread starter The Biblicist
- Start date
Or this sequence; By the faith of Jesus the Christ ----> and the grace of God---> Unto justification--->and sanctified by the Spirit unto belief---Unto salvation.
And yet you fail to show these scriptures.
Ephesians 2:8-9 does not mention being born with a sin nature whatsoever.
That is not the sequence shown at all. What is shown is
Faith ---> Grace ----> Saved
We are saved by grace, so grace precedes being saved, but this grace is received through faith. Faith precedes receiving grace.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We have access into God's grace by faith. Faith comes first, grace follows. You do not receive faith by grace, you receive grace by faith.
You have the scriptural order exactly BACKWARDS.
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Think correct biblical concept would be that the grace of God applies towards sinners, who then receive christ by faith to confirm their election was of/from God!
Nah, I think you are wrong.
evangelist-7
New Member
Yes, IMO I am one of the few here who would agree with you about sanctification ...
that's why I did not bring this issue into the equation: the sanctification (process) unto holiness.
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evangelist-7
New Member
So we agree that faith to believe in Jesus and His gospel is a gift from God.
But, not to everyone ... just to the elect.
Okay, Romans 5:2 seems to be saying (illogically IMO):
GIFT of FAITH -- given to the elect
GRACE -- given to the elect
MIRACLE OF BELIEF is the first result
SANCTIFICATION is necessary???
SALVATION is the final result
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evangelist-7
New Member
When did I say faith is a gift from God? Show where I said that.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. You could not believe in Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, but once man hears the word of God he can choose to either believe it or not believe it.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Here Paul directly addresses the topic of HOW a person BELIEVES. Does Paul ask how a person can believe unless God gives him faith? NO, Paul simply asks how can any person believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him. That is all that is required for any man to believe in Jesus, to HEAR OF HIM. Once a man hears of Jesus, he can decide whether Jesus was truly the Son of God who died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead or not. It is that simple.
Paul doesn't say more, because there is no more.
Romans 5:2 says we have access into grace by faith. Doesn't matter if you think it logical or not, that is what God's word says.
OK then explain how I, who did not believe, could come to belief? Your saying it was my own choice, but I did NOT believe....one does not believe who broke every commandment, who violated Gods laws, who did not give a rot. I am sorry but I do not see it. And dont go telling me I had some genesis of belief deep down there somewhere because it wasn't there. I was born & raised an RC & that meant I was really an functioning atheist, I never picked that up in 32 years & when I met my wife it was then convenient to become what she was (for the sake of the children) but I never picked up a bible & studied it nor did I attempt to teach it to my family like a Christian man should. I did things only for me.....I worshiped me, I fought for me, I stole for ME, I lied for ME. God played no part in my life otherwise I would have modified my behavior. I worshiped money, drugs, alcohol, fornication, cars & growing my career.
Until that eventful day 2 + years ago when the HS confronted me, I had no interest in God & now He is all I live for. So you tell me because I have really racked my brain to think of a time I was a believer & you know what, I CANT!
evangelist-7
New Member
That was the foundation upon which I built my belief of: grace > gift > faith > belief.
And you said nothing about it, while disagreeing with the order of faith and grace.
Ergo, I mistakenly-assumed that you were in agreement about FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD.
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evangelist-7
New Member
Praise the Lord!
I wonder how many people were praying for that day to happen!
One thing for sure: you were part of the elect from before the foundation of the world!
Praise the Lord!
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Brother ....I was 54 YO, nobody, (least of all me) thought in a million years that would EVER happen! :godisgood:
Maybe he takes the biggest sinner & changes them to prove a point. :thumbs:
evangelist-7
New Member
I was 45 when it happened to me, and the odds (according to a table I saw) were 600,000 to 1 (because of my age).
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Nice story, but scripture says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. You eventually decided to believe God's word was true. Takes some folks longer than others, some cling to sin longer than others. Some folks have to hit rock bottom, others accept the word of God as a child, every person is different.
You can't build doctrine on experience, that is what Charismatics do.
If you believe faith is a gift, then you haven't started believing God's word YET. The scriptures says faith comes by hearing the word of God, but obviously you refuse to hear that.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Again, Paul directly addresses the topic of how any person comes to believe in Romans 10. Paul doesn't say it is a gift that is irresistibly forced on a person, he says faith comes by hearing the word of God. Paul does not say that a man must be supernaturally regenerated as many falsely teach.
Now that is what God's word says if you will hear it.
Your not listening......I DID NOT BELIEVE......Ever, Never, Never. So you are still not answering my question & your nice pat answer doesnt fill the bill. your missing something vital.....I dont know what it is but until you figure it out quit calling me a Charismatic.
You either believe or you don't, it is a choice. It is like the debates we have here on the young earth, some believe Genesis 1 as literal, others do not. Nothing magical, you either believe it as it is written or you don't.
I believe Genesis 1 is literal, and that the world is around 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years, and that God made everything in six literal 24 hour days.
What do you believe on this issue?
Are you asking me if I am a Dispensationalist? The answer to that is no....nor am I a Calvinist, nor am I a covenant or a NCT believer. I haven't formulated an opinion yet other than He is God & I am not. But I can quote my favorite scripture from Genesis....18: 25, Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
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EWF a charismatic ?
yeah, right, and Pierce Morgan is a rightist.
lol. :laugh:
yeah, right, and Pierce Morgan is a rightist.
lol. :laugh: