skypair said:
There's the problem -- we don't define "fatalistic" the same way.
See, to me (I think as it is commonly understood), there are no choices for man under fatalism.
Just because the choices and consequences we make can be known beforehand does NOT take those decisions out of our hands as it does under fatalism or determinism.
It doesn't matter what I choose as all things will work out as God foreknows. No matter what I choose, it will not change any events away from what God already foreknew. Thus, either determinism or fatalism must be true.
Determinism does not take the choices out of hands, it merley posits that the choices are inevitable. Thats all that determinism is. If God foreknows a choice will be made, then that choice is inevitable - ie. determinism/fatalism. The choices may remain totally in your hand yet the fact that you choose a certain thing is still totally inevitable.
If God foreknows that you will be go to hell, is there any choice you can make which will change the inevitable result of you going to hell? You might say that you *could* choose to believe and thus not go to hell, but the fact remains that there is absolutely no chance that you will do so. That is determinism/fatalism at its core. A future which is foreknow is a future which is set in concrete and a future in which all human choices are known to happen in one way with certain inevitability.
You are using the Calvinist definition of "known" or "foreknown" in that interpretation. Do you see that? If the choice I made was only foreseen, not determined on my behalf, then there is no fatalism at work but free will.
I make no statement at all about anything being determined for me. I merely point out that if the future can be known with absolute certainty, then what I am going to do is already set - I cannot choose other than what is known will happen regardless of what free will I might have. Eveything I choose, no matter how freely, will occur exactly as was known beforehand.
That logic assumes that omniscience is only possible because God determines everything, dw.
No not at all. There are several other possible explanations. But it doesn't really matter, the logic is the same whether God determined everything or if 'fate' exists apart from God, or whether we make choices based purely on external/internal stimuli. I make no assumptions about what might have 'determined' those choices, merely that they are determined by the simple fact that they can be foreknown with certainty.
That is Calvinism precisely. But omniscience -- all knowledge -- does NOT require God to predestine/predetermine all things. He can foreknow without "fore-causing."
Agreed. The simple fact of foreknowledge though means that the choices are either fatalistic or determined.
Under fatalism, God makes you sin. You have no choice in the matter. Do you believe this?
Nope, and neither does any Calvinist.
Under free will, God knows beforehand that you will sin. He knows that all the options of good and evil are present from which you can choose. The outcome is your choice although God has told you beforehand what His consequences will be if you choose that way.
Yet regardless of the possible options, He knows (without necessarily causing) with certainty what you will choose. Thus, your choices are inevitable - ie. determinism.
