The false charge of fatalism

I did notice the amendment. I also noticed that they didn't change the course or conclusion of my logic. You added clarification/distinction without affecting the logic. Therefore I must assume that either
a) you don't believe in the full omniscience of
b) you are a determinist/fatalist
c) you are still searching to find some way to negate my logic

Since you made no mention of option a or c, then I concluded option b must be the truth. You say that it not, therefore, I ask which of the other options fit you best?

But it is fatalistic to say that the choices and consequences are known with 100% accuracy beforehand. If one agrees that that sort of knowledge exists, then that leads to the logical conclusion of determinism/fatalism.

I did no such comparison. Look at my logic again. I merely point out that if events can be known with absolute certainty before the fact, then determinism/fatalism is the inevitable result.

Try dealing with my logic directly before going off on tangents to my logic. I make no stance on whether fatalism and determinism are the same as of yet. My logic deals exclusively with the fact that all who hold to full omniscience also must hold necessarily to determinism/fatalism.

 

There's the problem -- we don't define "fatalistic" the same way. See, to me (I think as it is commonly understood), there are no choices for man under fatalism. Just because the choices and consequences we make can be known beforehand does NOT take those decisions out of our hands as it does under fatalism or determinism.

You are using the Calvinist definition of "known" or "foreknown" in that interpretation. Do you see that? If the choice I made was only foreseen, not determined on my behalf, then there is no fatalism at work but free will.

That logic assumes that omniscience is only possible because God determines everything, dw. That is Calvinism precisely. But omniscience -- all knowledge -- does NOT require God to predestine/predetermine all things. He can foreknow without "fore-causing."

Under fatalism, God makes you sin. You have no choice in the matter. Do you believe this?

Under free will, God knows beforehand that you will sin. He knows that all the options of good and evil are present from which you can choose. The outcome is your choice although God has told you beforehand what His consequences will be if you choose that way.

skypair

 

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

Was John Calvin an hyper-Calvinist webdog?

Why thank you old chap. Being called correct and only logical is a rare treat. Below is another piece of logic I'd love to see a free willer get to grips with.

And if God ever loved them then His love has failed. Scipture would also have failed because scripture says love never fails.

Would you expand on this please dwmoeller.

john.

 

Well,

If Wikipedia is your authority, then why are you discussing God?

 

Let's play "Name That Logical Fallacy"!!!

Was Wikipedia wrong? If so, how? If not, what's your beef?

 

dw

I DO want to give you minor credit. What you call "determinism" in this case is foreordination. Yes, God did ordain before creation what He foreknew.

Foreordination is not the same as predestination. In my mind, ordination is to establish, let stand -- to determination is to cause, to make happen. Perhaps we should try to agree on these 2 terms as they are both used in scripture and do cause confusion in our discussions and thoughts.

skypair

 

It doesn't matter what I choose as all things will work out as God foreknows. No matter what I choose, it will not change any events away from what God already foreknew. Thus, either determinism or fatalism must be true.

Determinism does not take the choices out of hands, it merley posits that the choices are inevitable. Thats all that determinism is. If God foreknows a choice will be made, then that choice is inevitable - ie. determinism/fatalism. The choices may remain totally in your hand yet the fact that you choose a certain thing is still totally inevitable.

If God foreknows that you will be go to hell, is there any choice you can make which will change the inevitable result of you going to hell? You might say that you *could* choose to believe and thus not go to hell, but the fact remains that there is absolutely no chance that you will do so. That is determinism/fatalism at its core. A future which is foreknow is a future which is set in concrete and a future in which all human choices are known to happen in one way with certain inevitability.

I make no statement at all about anything being determined for me. I merely point out that if the future can be known with absolute certainty, then what I am going to do is already set - I cannot choose other than what is known will happen regardless of what free will I might have. Eveything I choose, no matter how freely, will occur exactly as was known beforehand.

No not at all. There are several other possible explanations. But it doesn't really matter, the logic is the same whether God determined everything or if 'fate' exists apart from God, or whether we make choices based purely on external/internal stimuli. I make no assumptions about what might have 'determined' those choices, merely that they are determined by the simple fact that they can be foreknown with certainty.

Agreed. The simple fact of foreknowledge though means that the choices are either fatalistic or determined.

Nope, and neither does any Calvinist.

Yet regardless of the possible options, He knows (without necessarily causing) with certainty what you will choose. Thus, your choices are inevitable - ie. determinism.

 

You see disagreement where there is none. You keep asserting that I am arguing for God causing things. I am not. I am discussing purely and simply about God's foreknowledge. I am even willing, for the sake of the discussion, to agree that God causes *nothing* at all in the course of history. My argument has absolutely nothing to do with God causing anything.

I merely point out that foreknowledge leads logically to determinism/fatalism.