The doctrine of indulgences.
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The False Doctrine of Purgatory
- Thread starter Hobie
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The person will be saved. That's a promise...even though all the works in building through that person's lifetime are burned up, yet that person is saved.
Purgatory is not mentioned, nor implied. You are forcing your churches false doctrine onto the scripture passage, which is called "prooftexting" out of context. That is a major flaw of your denomination.
As I stated before . . .
This can't be Heaven because the person "suffers".
This can't be Heaven because the person is eventually "saved".
This is talking about a THIRD state - the state of Final Purification.
Sooooo, explain where and what this is.
WRONG.
1 Cor. 3:10-15 is talking about the Day of Judgement.
The person is being judged - and when we are judged - our WORKS are judged.
I suggest you read the Parable of the sheep and the Goats in Matt. 25:31-46 . . .
You keep making this idiotic claim - but you have YET to produce even ONE.
Office of the Pope (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31, John 21:15-19)
Prayers to the dead (Luke 9:29-31. Rev. 5:8, Rev. 8:3-5)
Priestly Celibacy (Matt. 19:9-121 Cor. 7:1-7, 1 Cor. 7:32-34)
No such thing as "man made saints" . . .
As for Jack Chick - he rode on Hislop's coattails and made up the rest.
His "Alberto" series was shamefully counterfeit and has been debunked by just about every credible theologian out there.
The fact that he never recanted his lies before he died sends shivers up my spine to ponder what happened to his eternal soul . . .
I'm not sure how much I need to repeat this but any Catholic who espouses heresy or embrases heterodoxy has excommunicated himself as per the many anathemas that have been declared.
The Church doesn't go around formally excommunicating EVERY dissident.
That's why there were anathemas in the FIRST place. I'm not sure what part of this you can't seem to grasp.
This isn't a doctrine. This is a discipline.
You need to learn the difference before you post.
At any rate - this is supported by Scripture: Matt. 19:9-121 Cor. 7:1-7, 1 Cor. 7:32-34
It always cracks me up that Indulgences are the FIRST thing anti-Catholics bring up - yet they are rarely ever cited.
Anyway - the following passages show that Christ gave His Church SUPREME earthly Authority - that WHATEVER it ordains on earth would also be ordained in Heaven.
This is a God-given authority and not "man-made" in the least . . .
Matt 16:16-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”
These verses clearly show the church's God-given Authority to bind and loose sin.
As stated in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins.”
No suffering. You are adding to the text.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
On the day we believers stand before our King, the works we have done will be judged. What we built upon the foundation of Christ will either stand firm or be burned due to its weakness, but we will enter heaven though the fire of hell licks at us to consume us.
No purgatory.
Your posts are always dishonest - and this one is NO different . . .
First, you say that there is "NO suffering" and that I "added" to the text.
Then, in your OWN post, you posted the text of 1 Cor. 3:10-15 which clearly shows that there IS suffering (above in RED).
There is no suffering in Heaven (Rev. 21:4).
As for the "Day" - this is Judgement Day. The persons works are being judged as per the Parable of the sheep and Goats in Matt. 25:31-46.
Do you remember what happens in that Parable?? Some are saved and some are condemned based on what they DID or DIDN'T DO.
Try again . . .
Same difference - it's FALSE !
HORSE FEATHERS
No mention of any pope in the verses you cite. Can'tcha read ?
And who knows if Paul had some ailment making him a eunuch? remember, he had a "thorn"
But your cult makes it a REQUIREMENT. Heard of any married people becoming priests or nuns lately? Had plenty of priests in the "Boyzz R Us Club" lately !
Yup - "false", even though I gave you no less that THREE Scriptural references for it:
Matt. 19:9-12
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
1 Cor. 7:1-7
Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,” but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command.
Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
1 Cor. 7:32-34
I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided.
An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit.
A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
If no one married/had sex, there'd soon be no people.
And again, your cult REQUIRES its clergy be celibate before becoming a candidate for it & remain so after ordination. Thus, the "Boyzz R Us Club".
WOW.
Your ignorance is really astounding for a guy who spends time debating online . . .
First of all - YES, there are married guys who become priests in the Catholic church. just NOT in the Roman/Latin Rite.
In the Eastern Rites, this happens all the time. There are some TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the Catholic Church. It's not the "Roman Catholic Church" - it's "The Catholic Church".
Secondly - just because there is no mention of the word "Pope" in Scripture doesn't mean the office isn't described. The office IS described in the verses I presented (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31, John 21:15-19).
"Pope" isn't even an official title - but a simple term of endearment that means "Papa/Father". That name developed over time.
Can you find me a verse with the word "Trinity"??
How about "Incarnation"??
While you're busy looking for those - find me the word "Bible" in the Bible . . .
WOW.
That's what you got out of the verses I posted??
They don't say that NOBODY should marry.
They simply say that for those who CAN stay celibate for God - they SHOULD. because it is a more excellent way to serve Him.
That just means what he built will burn up. It doesn't mean the person goes to an unnamed purgatory to spend time being purified. You are reading your dogma into the text of scripture.
The text states very plainly:
"But if someone’s work is burned up, THAT ONE will suffer loss . . ."
There is NO suffering nor is there any LOSS in Heaven. That is where everything is GAINED.
This is NOT describing Heaven.
This is NOT describing Hell because the person is eventually saved.
This is referring to a THIRD state - a state of final purification.
I'm not reading ANYTHING into this that the Early Church didn't read . . .
Clement of Alexandria
The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).
Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).
Abercius
The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).
Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).
John Chrysostom
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).\
Augustine
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).
You mean like this with Romans 2? (Yes, Verse 13 is indeed pretty clear).
God's Judgment and the Law
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
4 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
How was the statement from the CCC muddied up? It was pretty clear that it said we receive justification through faith. Even when confronted with a clear statement you just cannot bring yourself to agree with anything the Catholic Church says can you lest it interfere with your preconceived and false notions of what the Catholic Church teaches.
Let's say that you are at church following along with the pastor from a particular scripture passage. Are you allowed to disagree with him or are you supposed to listen and believe what he says about it? And are you free to deviate from Baptist doctrines?
We as Catholics do not come to our own interpretation of the scriptures, we believe what the Church teaches about them and rely on the 2000 years of theological study by those men, the Bishop's who have led the Church.
Good grief, if I were to start interpreting the Holy Scriptures on my own I would just have to go out and start my own church!
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