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The False Doctrine of Purgatory

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AustinC

Well-Known Member
The text states very plainly:
"But if someone’s work is burned up, THAT ONE will suffer loss . . ."

There is NO suffering nor is there any LOSS in Heaven. That is where everything is GAINED.

This is NOT describing Heaven.
This is NOT describing Hell because the person is eventually saved.
This is referring to a THIRD state - a state of final purification.

I'm not reading ANYTHING into this that the Early Church didn't read . . .

Clement of Alexandria
The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Abercius
The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).\

Augustine
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).




That loss is the part of the building they were working on.
You are forcing a fictitious purgatory into the passage.
Your fictitious purgatory lead to the fictitious indulgences, which ultimately lead to God rejecting Rome and Reforming His church to walk in truth rather than fiction.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member

You mean like this with Romans 2? (Yes, Verse 13 is indeed pretty clear).

God's Judgment and the Law

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.


4 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.



How was the statement from the CCC muddied up? It was pretty clear that it said we receive justification through faith. Even when confronted with a clear statement you just cannot bring yourself to agree with anything the Catholic Church says can you lest it interfere with your preconceived and false notions of what the Catholic Church teaches.

Let's say that you are at church following along with the pastor from a particular scripture passage. Are you allowed to disagree with him or are you supposed to listen and believe what he says about it? And are you free to deviate from Baptist doctrines?

We as Catholics do not come to our own interpretation of the scriptures, we believe what the Church teaches about them and rely on the 2000 years of theological study by those men Bishop's who have led the Church.

Good grief, if I were to start interpreting the Holy Scriptures on my own I would just have to go out and start my own church!

Is there any who live by the law who are righteous by doing the law?

No. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

Romans 2 is not declaring people righteous by their works. That false concept is why Paul spends chapters 3-9 declaring that we are saved by grace through faith. Our justification comes not by our works but by Jesus atoning sacrifice, which we, by God's gift of faith, believe and hold to be true.

What would be a good start for you is to begin questioning your churches teaching and become a Berean Christian.
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Is there any who live by the law who are righteous by doing the law?

No. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God.

Romans 2 is not declaring people righteous by their works. That false concept is why Paul spends chapters 3-9 declaring that we are saved by grace through faith. Our justification comes not by our works but by Jesus atoning sacrifice, which we, by God's gift of faith, believe and hold to be true.

What would be a good start for you is to begin questioning your churches teaching and become a Berean Christian.

A "Berean" Christian? That rules out Protestantism and leaves you with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

I always find it humorous when Protestants try to lay claim to the Bereans, given that there has NEVER been a Protestant church in Berea (modern day Veria), until the 1980s.
 
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MarysSon

Active Member
That loss is the part of the building they were working on.
You are forcing a fictitious purgatory into the passage.
Your fictitious purgatory lead to the fictitious indulgences, which ultimately lead to God rejecting Rome and Reforming His church to walk in truth rather than fiction.
WRONG.

The passage states clearly: "THAT ONE will suffer loss."
You cannot suffer anything in Heaven. It is impossible because everything in Heaven is perfect and nothing imperfect can exist (Rev. 21:27). So, by denying this final purification spoken of in 1 Cor. 3:10-13 - it is YOU who is forcing a different meaning on the text.

As to the tragedy of Protestantism - there is nothing that God delights in regarding the confused mess that is tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY one who smiles on that bickering confusion is Satan . . .
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'll name another - Celibacy for the clergy.

Hey, how about "saved by faith alone"? Nothing in the bible about that. You guys claim you know the scriptures so well, yet you repeatedly ignore what it actually says. I seem to remember a verse that talks about "binding and loosing". Well, this is another place where the legitimate authority of the Bishop's of the Universal Church is exercised. Actually though, married clergymen are allowed in some instances of the Latin Rite.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
A "Berean" Christian? That rules out Protestantism and leaves you with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

I always find it humorous when Protestants try to lay claim to the Bereans, given that there has NEVER been a Protestant church in Berea (modern day Veria), until the 1980s.
Sorry Walpole, the Roman Church didn't even exist when the Bereans asked questions. They gave all of us the blueprint for questioning teachers.
Neither Protestant, nor Roman Catholic, nor Eastern Orthodox matter at all. What matters is God's chosen and elect people of the promise who are found in many many denominations.
Your pride in your denomination is not warranted.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
WRONG.

The passage states clearly: "THAT ONE will suffer loss."
You cannot suffer anything in Heaven. It is impossible because everything in Heaven is perfect and nothing imperfect can exist (Rev. 21:27). So, by denying this final purification spoken of in 1 Cor. 3:10-13 - it is YOU who is forcing a different meaning on the text.

As to the tragedy of Protestantism - there is nothing that God delights in regarding the confused mess that is tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY one who smiles on that bickering confusion is Satan . . .
Already addressed on more than one occasion. I reject your prooftext that is not supported by context.
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Sorry Walpole, the Roman Church didn't even exist when the Bereans asked questions. They gave all of us the blueprint for questioning teachers.
Neither Protestant, nor Roman Catholic, nor Eastern Orthodox matter at all. What matters is God's chosen and elect people of the promise who are found in many many denominations.
Your pride in your denomination is not warranted.

You are incorrect. Most scholars contend Acts was written in the 60s A.D., while St. Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans in the 50s A.D. Furthermore, St. Paul writes this to the Roman Catholics in his epistle to them...

Romans 1:8 ---> "First I give thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your faith is spoken of in the whole world."

Clearly the Roman Church existed and its faith was already heralded throughout the world.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
You are incorrect. Most scholars contend Acts was written in the 60s A.D., while St. Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans in the 50s A.D. Furthermore, St. Paul writes this to the Roman Catholics in his epistle to them...

Romans 1:8 ---> "First I give thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your faith is spoken of in the whole world."

Clearly the Roman Church existed and its faith was already heralded throughout the world.

Most scholars?

Paul went to Ephesus, Phillips, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens and Corinth far before Rome.

You foolishly trust Rome rather than trust God's word. In the Bible we see God choosing his elect, predestined children of the promise. He never declares the church at Rome to be anything special.
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Most scholars?

Can you name one who dates Romans later than Acts?

Paul went to Ephesus, Phillips, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens and Corinth far before Rome.

You missed my point. Paul wrote to the faithful at Rome. Hence your assertion that the Roman church hadn't existed when Paul visited Berea was demonstrable fallacious. Clearly there was a Church in Rome and its faith was even heralded throughout the world. (No other Church is that claim made about.) Shortly after Paul's visit in Berea and Athens, he is greeted by Roman converts Aquilla and Priscilla (cf. Acts 18:2). Ergo, there was a Roman Church in existence.

Here is your "Godly scholar" John Piper affirming this ---> The Chronology of the New Testament

Maybe you'll take his word for it.


You foolishly trust Rome rather than trust God's word. In the Bible we see God choosing his elect, predestined children of the promise. He never declares the church at Rome to be anything special.

Non-sequitur. (No content.)
 
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JonC

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Thread closed due to its length. Please feel free to continue the discussion on a new thread.
 
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