The false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

[MarysSon]

Your church is almost-universally called 'ROMAN Catholic". And it was NOT started by Jesus. If Peter was the first pope he didn't know it. In fact the first 5 men the RCC recognizes as popes didn't know it.

As for the Immaculate Deception, that false doctrine was first formulated at the Council of Ephesus in 431. However, it didn't become official RC dogma til Dec. 8, 1854, in pope Pius IX's Ineffabilis Deus. article of faith.

IT CANNOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, even in a Catholic Bible version. That fact alone makes it false.

The only thing "false" here are YOUR claims.

First of all - everything I educated you about in my last post about the actual name of the Catholic Church is true. It's NOT called The "Roman" Catholic Church. It is officially called, The Catholic Church. If you don't like it - that's your problem - not mine.

Secondly - your claim that "none" of the first 5 Popes even knew they were the Pope is patently false. The Third Pope was Clement, right after Linus. We have the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians in which he displays his authority from the Church in Rome to settle a matter in Corinth.
Now - why would the Bishop of Rome need to settle a matter in Corinth when there is ALREADY a Bishop there??
Answer: AUTHORITY.
He was the Pope.

Finally - as to your whining about the Immaculate Conception - I've already shown ALL of you that Mary is the fulfilllment of the Ark of the Covenant - and I have you a LONG list of Scriptural comparisons. I also gave you all the Kecharitomene evidence from (Luke 1:28) that NONE of you has been able to refute.

I'm still waiting for a sound SCRIPTURAL refutation of BOTH . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Any prayer to Mary doesn't go past the ceiling...

Then, can you tell me what the Elders are doing in Heaven in Rev. 5:8?
While you're at it - why don't you also tell me what the Angels are doing in Rev. 8:4-5?

Why can't ANY of you answer these questions??

 

[robycop3]

Then, can you tell me what the Elders are doing in Heaven in Rev. 5:8?
While you're at it - why don't you also tell me what the Angels are doing in Rev. 8:4-5?

Why can't ANY of you answer these questions??

Heaven is a LOT different from here, & angels are "higher" beings than people.

 

[robycop3]

The only thing "false" here are YOUR claims.

First of all - everything I educated you about in my last post about the actual name of the Catholic Church is true. It's NOT called The "Roman" Catholic Church. It is officially called, The Catholic Church. If you don't like it - that's your problem - not mine.

Secondly - your claim that "none" of the first 5 Popes even knew they were the Pope is patently false. The Third Pope was Clement, right after Linus. We have the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians in which he displays his authority from the Church in Rome to settle a matter in Corinth.
Now - why would the Bishop of Rome need to settle a matter in Corinth when there is ALREADY a Bishop there??
Answer: AUTHORITY.
He was the Pope.

Finally - as to your whining about the Immaculate Conception - I've already shown ALL of you that Mary is the fulfilllment of the Ark of the Covenant - and I have you a LONG list of Scriptural comparisons. I also gave you all the Kecharitomene evidence from (Luke 1:28) that NONE of you has been able to refute.

I'm still waiting for a sound SCRIPTURAL refutation of BOTH . . .

"Roman" Catholic is used to connote Catholics in full communion with the pope, which most of you are.

Clement's letter to the Corinthians was an OPINION that the presbyters of that church held authority over it, not a command.

And again, there's absolutely NO evidence - Scriptural or secular - that Mary's conception & birth were anything but ordinary, nor that she was anything but an ordinary young Jewish woman til Gabriel visited her.

 

[MarysSon]

Heaven is a LOT different from here, & angels are "higher" beings than people.

Address Rev. 5:8. This has nothing to do with angels - but PEOPLE.

 

[MarysSon]

"Roman" Catholic is used to connote Catholics in full communion with the pope, which most of you are.

WRONG.

A Melkite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Byzantine Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Maronite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
They are all Catholics in full communion with the Pope - but within their own Liturgical Rites.

If you're going to be an anti-Catholic - at LEAST be an educated one . . .

Clement's letter to the Corinthians was an OPINION that the presbyters of that church held authority over it, not a command.

WRONG.
Clement used the word "Disobey" in his admonition to the Church at Corinth.

Clement of Rome
If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

This is a textbook example of Church Authority.

And again, there's absolutely NO evidence - Scriptural or secular - that Mary's conception & birth were anything but ordinary, nor that she was anything but an ordinary young Jewish woman til Gabriel visited her.

WRONG.

You have YET to give a Scriptural refutation of Mary's Title of "Kecharitomene".
As I indicated earlier - she is the ONLY one in ALL of Scripture (OT or NT) that is given this name.

As for claiming that there is "no secular" evidence - WHY would you say that in light of the writings of the Early Church Fathers - and your own Protestant Fathers??
Justin Martyr
. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
." Eve . . . having become disobedient with sin, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient with no sin, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Martin Luther
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." (Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,)

Ulrich Zwingili
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Ibid)

[/QUOTE]

 

[robycop3]

WRONG.

A Melkite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Byzantine Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Maronite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
They are all Catholics in full communion with the Pope - but within their own Liturgical Rites.

If you're going to be an anti-Catholic - at LEAST be an educated one . . .

WRONG.
Clement used the word "Disobey" in his admonition to the Church at Corinth.

Clement of Rome
If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

This is a textbook example of Church Authority.

WRONG.

You have YET to give a Scriptural refutation of Mary's Title of "Kecharitomene".
As I indicated earlier - she is the ONLY one in ALL of Scripture (OT or NT) that is given this name.

As for claiming that there is "no secular" evidence - WHY would you say that in light of the writings of the Early Church Fathers - and your own Protestant Fathers??
Justin Martyr
. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
." Eve . . . having become disobedient with sin, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient with no sin, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Martin Luther
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." (Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,)

Ulrich Zwingili
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Ibid)

[/QUOTE]

The RCC didn't get to be the world's biggest cult without having lots of excuse-makers who believed its hooey.

First, call'em whatever you wish. They take their orders from ROME; therefore they're ROMAN Catholics, as mosta the world calls'em.

Next, Clement didn't say anything about disobeying HIM - it was about disobeying JESUS.

And those men were simply GUESSING. Any REAL evidence would have to come from Mary's mother's time.

 

[MarysSon]

The RCC didn't get to be the world's biggest cult without having lots of excuse-makers who believed its hooey.
First, call'em whatever you wish. They take their orders from ROME; therefore they're ROMAN Catholics, as mosta the world calls'em.

And if you want to wallow in ignorance - be my guest . . .

Next, Clement didn't say anything about disobeying HIM - it was about disobeying JESUS.

Right. The Pope doesn't go around issuing orders on his own.
He ALWAYS appeals to Christ and the Scriptures..

And those men were simply GUESSING. Any REAL evidence would have to come from Mary's mother's time.

According to Paul, Sacred Tradition is ON PAR with Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."

This has been a Sacred Tradition from the very beginning of the Church.
Those "men" (the ECFs) were simply carrying on that Sacred Tradition - as were YOUR Protestant Fathers, as I showed you.

 

[MarysSon]

Next, Clement didn't say anything about disobeying HIM - it was about disobeying JESUS.

So, tell me - WHY would Clement of ROME be getting involved with telling the Church at Corinth what to do if he wasn't in charge??

Show ANY Scriptural example of this.
Paul was a travelling missionary and ONLY admonished the Churches HE planted and/or worked with.

 

[robycop3]

And if you want to wallow in ignorance - be my guest . . .

Go ahead & tell the world it is wrong.[/I][/B]

Right.

The Pope doesn't go around issuing orders on his own.
He ALWAYS appeals to Christ and the Scriptures..

Not so on many occasions, such as on the immaculate deception. Many papal "bulls" are JUST THAT !

According to Paul, Sacred Tradition is ON PAR with Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."

This has been a Sacred Tradition from the very beginning of the Church.
Those "men" (the ECFs) were simply carrying on that Sacred Tradition - as were YOUR Protestant Fathers, as I showed you.

Paul had a hotline to Jesus. But many RC oral traditions were invented after God had finished giving new Scripture to us.

 

[robycop3]

So, tell me - WHY would Clement of ROME be getting involved with telling the Church at Corinth what to do if he wasn't in charge??

Show ANY Scriptural example of this.
Paul was a travelling missionary and ONLY admonished the Churches HE planted and/or worked with.

Most likely, someone in Corinth believed he was wise, & asked his opinion.

 

[MarysSon]

Not so on many occasions, such as on the immaculate deception. Many papal "bulls" are JUST THAT !
Paul had a hotline to Jesus. But many RC oral traditions were invented after God had finished giving new Scripture to us.

It's amazing to me how you can actually READ something and be completely clueless of what it says.
Here it is again - and pay attention this time:
Clement of Rome
If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] THROUGH US, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Once again - this is a textbook example of Church Authority.
Jesus speaks THROUGH His ordained leaders. THIS is what He meant at the Last supper, when He told them:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide YOU to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

And THIS is what Paul was talking about when he wrote:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

YOUR pride-filled objections to this Authority came some 1500 years later . . .
Church AUTHORITY is GOD -given (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

 

[Salty]

WRONG.

A Melkite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Byzantine Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
A Maronite Catholic is NOT a "Roman" Catholic.
They are all Catholics in full communion with the Pope - but within their own Liturgical Rites.

If you're going to be an anti-Catholic - at LEAST be an educated one . . .

[/QUOTE]


Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree

 

[Salty]

Thus this thread is now closed - without warning
and has been determined there is no need to
start a new one or similar one.