-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Gina;
My self I feel that what I have in Christ is much more than just belief. I know Christ and He knows me. I've spoken with Him and He with my very heart. He and I have a relationship that is deeper than any friendship ever could be.
If I could be drawn away by the lust of the world and turned my back on Him renouncing him to continue in worldly pleasures. Then certainly I would be lost because of my treason against Him. and my non belief.
He is infinite. I am finite. I believe in freewill and just because I feel the way I do about Him, I don't believe he would hold me captive against my will. Not that my will is greater than His but that my love be genuine and not forced.
I have surrendered my will to Him. Will he prevent me from taking it up again?. If so why do we all still commit sin?.If we are sealed as you say then why aren't we sealed from sin as well? Nothing irritates me more than the fact I still sin.
May God Bless You;
Mike
I've always thought of Eternal Life as a reward for believing in Christ.If we continue in that belief certainly we are assured of the Gift. I've heard many say that if a man turns from God and never returns he was lost to begin with and was never saved.I'm not so sure of this.
My self I feel that what I have in Christ is much more than just belief. I know Christ and He knows me. I've spoken with Him and He with my very heart. He and I have a relationship that is deeper than any friendship ever could be.
If I could be drawn away by the lust of the world and turned my back on Him renouncing him to continue in worldly pleasures. Then certainly I would be lost because of my treason against Him. and my non belief.
He is infinite. I am finite. I believe in freewill and just because I feel the way I do about Him, I don't believe he would hold me captive against my will. Not that my will is greater than His but that my love be genuine and not forced.
I have surrendered my will to Him. Will he prevent me from taking it up again?. If so why do we all still commit sin?.If we are sealed as you say then why aren't we sealed from sin as well? Nothing irritates me more than the fact I still sin.
May God Bless You;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Brother Dallas;
Your right it is my fear that keeps me from at least committing some of the sins I'm tempted of. Even still this doesn't detour me from all sin. That fact that we all still sin is proof of a freewill to choose to do so. This same freewill that allows us to sin can also cause us to reject the discipline of the Lord. In the coarse of my life I have been disciplined many times. I know the Lord has came after me even to bring me back but this has never been a hog tie party where I'm forced to return. I've always been given options. Most of the time the options aren't to pretty, but options never the less.
You have still given a good account of what you believe but still I see fear as a necessity.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.
To me the fear of the Lord is what compels us to avoid sin.
Thankyou for you reply.
May God Bless You;
Mike
Your right it is my fear that keeps me from at least committing some of the sins I'm tempted of. Even still this doesn't detour me from all sin. That fact that we all still sin is proof of a freewill to choose to do so. This same freewill that allows us to sin can also cause us to reject the discipline of the Lord. In the coarse of my life I have been disciplined many times. I know the Lord has came after me even to bring me back but this has never been a hog tie party where I'm forced to return. I've always been given options. Most of the time the options aren't to pretty, but options never the less.
You have still given a good account of what you believe but still I see fear as a necessity.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.
To me the fear of the Lord is what compels us to avoid sin.
Thankyou for you reply.
May God Bless You;
Mike
Well, every good thing comes from God, so we know that man's ability to have faith is a gift of God. But the difference is that I believe all men inherently possess that gift to believe in the unseen. We see that displayed all around us each day. You seperate saving faith, belief in the unseen Christ, as being a gift God gives to certain people, the elect. I don't see that supported in the scripture. Anyone can believe in anything that is unseen once they have been told about it, including the gospel.
My point is this. If saving faith is given to certain people by God, why does Christ rebuke people for their lack of saving faith? Shouldn't he rebuke himself, or his Father, for not granting them that faith? </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew2, I did know the rest of the story, but your relating it left me believing that even Peter failed. Why did Peter not fail? Because Christ said He prayed for him--this is why the saving faith of any believer shall never fail, because there is one who is praying to that end.
Skandelon, where did Christ rebuke the 'faithless' (those without faith for not having faith)?
Bro. Dallas Eaton
You are welcome Brother Mike, the key is, you have never been permitted to fall completely away. The fear you speak of from Ps. 111 is noted, this too is a reverence toward God that unbelievers do not possess. This is why it is said to be the beginning of wisdom.
Look at Ps. 110.3.
I wouldn't disagree with your claim to a free will among believers; we see this in the choices of denominationalism I believe. I deny the free-will of man prior to regeneration. Moral ability? Perhaps to a degree, but there can never be claimed a 'reward' of salvation because of good moral actions. This would make the so called child of God an eternal member of heaven because of his own works and would by-pass the reconciliation in Christ. But, after regeneration, I do believe our wills are freed to the extent we can choose in what church relationship we shall follow Christ.
Maybe my opinion only, but it is what I beleive.
May God Richly bless you with the perfected Love you ought to have in the peace of God.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Massdak;
The one who continues in sin after being saved. His rational is that it'll be OK, because he is saved. He says this to himself because he no longer has any thing to prevent him from it. Isn't this having a preference for the sin rather than the righteousness of Christ?. This is man's freewill.
IMHO I feel that since I have the Holy Spirit with in my own self nurturing me and helping me grow in Christ. That I'm always in His presence, And because my reverence of the Lord is a result of my fear of Him. It's best not to assume that there are no longer consequences based upon my Salvation.
We are forgiven of our sins when we repent. To repent means to change or turn away. If we keep going back to the same sins repeatedly which we all do it seems. Then we have we fully repented of those sins?.
We are helpless and we all need the motivation from God, not to sin any longer. Yes my carnal flesh wants to be saved and sin all I want. But it is my fear that I maybe turned over to the tormentors, that keeps me with in the boundaries of His Love. I still sin but perhaps not as much as I would if I thought that there would be no consequences. I ask for forgiveness everyday even if I'm not sure weather I've sinned or not.
I believe we can go to far in our sin and fallaway. Nothing terrify's me more than spending eternity with out being in His presence.
May God Bless You;
Mike
I'd say that I persevere because I don't pick up my own freewill and walk away. If you have the freewill to sin then you have the freewill to walk away from the Lord.
The one who continues in sin after being saved. His rational is that it'll be OK, because he is saved. He says this to himself because he no longer has any thing to prevent him from it. Isn't this having a preference for the sin rather than the righteousness of Christ?. This is man's freewill.
IMHO I feel that since I have the Holy Spirit with in my own self nurturing me and helping me grow in Christ. That I'm always in His presence, And because my reverence of the Lord is a result of my fear of Him. It's best not to assume that there are no longer consequences based upon my Salvation.
We are forgiven of our sins when we repent. To repent means to change or turn away. If we keep going back to the same sins repeatedly which we all do it seems. Then we have we fully repented of those sins?.
We are helpless and we all need the motivation from God, not to sin any longer. Yes my carnal flesh wants to be saved and sin all I want. But it is my fear that I maybe turned over to the tormentors, that keeps me with in the boundaries of His Love. I still sin but perhaps not as much as I would if I thought that there would be no consequences. I ask for forgiveness everyday even if I'm not sure weather I've sinned or not.
I believe we can go to far in our sin and fallaway. Nothing terrify's me more than spending eternity with out being in His presence.
May God Bless You;
Mike
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
At the Senate of Dordt Calvinists said:
Some might say, no its just to motivate believers to continue in works so it all right. Even so, who are we as theologians to tell the world that God's threats are empty by propogating a doctrine that renders His threats impotent.
What if a mother said to her son, "Son, I know Daddy told you that he would spank you if you hit your brother, but I interpreted that to mean that he really wouldn't spank you but that he was just trying to scare you so you wouldn't do it again. It was just the means to make you continue to be a good boy."
Way to go, MOM. You just took the threat of the spanken away and undermined daddy's authority. We know that either mommy is a bad interpretor or that daddy is a liar. We won't know which until the Son hits the brother again, then its too late to stop the results. I don't know about you but I don't want to undermine God's direct threats by teaching they won't really be carried out.
Do you all think God makes empty threats? If not, how do you deal with the threats of scripture which seem to clearly indicate a loss of redeemed status for certain behavior?
They acknowledge God's use of means, and they even specifically refer to His use of threats. It amazes me that someone could dismiss a direct threat of God as not being something that could actually happen. Does God lie? Is God dishonest?
Some might say, no its just to motivate believers to continue in works so it all right. Even so, who are we as theologians to tell the world that God's threats are empty by propogating a doctrine that renders His threats impotent.
What if a mother said to her son, "Son, I know Daddy told you that he would spank you if you hit your brother, but I interpreted that to mean that he really wouldn't spank you but that he was just trying to scare you so you wouldn't do it again. It was just the means to make you continue to be a good boy."
Way to go, MOM. You just took the threat of the spanken away and undermined daddy's authority. We know that either mommy is a bad interpretor or that daddy is a liar. We won't know which until the Son hits the brother again, then its too late to stop the results. I don't know about you but I don't want to undermine God's direct threats by teaching they won't really be carried out.
Do you all think God makes empty threats? If not, how do you deal with the threats of scripture which seem to clearly indicate a loss of redeemed status for certain behavior?
Skandelon;
The answer to your question of feb 24, is that God's threats are not empty.
Bro. Bartholomew (sp) answered both positions quite well but he was dismissed out of hand without any further comment.
The key to both the Arminians and the Calvinists is that like the prophets of old who MISSED the duality of the prophecies of Christ, so too, have the 'theologians' of the church age missed the duality of the threats and promises.
On the one hand some see that there is SOMETHING which can never be lost. At the same time, others see SOMETHING which can be lost. How is this to be reconciled? Answer; the same way we have reconciled a suffering Messiah with a conquering Messiah. Take the WHOLE of Scripture and you will see a clear picture of TWO phases of the Same Person. In the same way when taken in their entirety, the Scriptures give us a dual picture of SALVATION. Messiah is TWO things just as SALVATION is two things.
Without writing a book on the subject ( which many have done for centuries throughout the last two millenia),let me try to re-state bro. Bart's position.
Where one sees eternal security, he is seeing his SALVATION as it pertains to eternity, age without end.
Where one sees the clear threat of losing something, he is seeing his SALVATION as it pertains to the Millenial Reign of Christ and his POSTION in it!
In answer to all your objections that this smacks of Romish purgatory, let me remind you all that the Judgement seat of Christ is not about ETERNAL SALVATION but is about rewards. May I also remind you that many precious truths of Scripture have been hijacked by the Roman church but it does not negate the TRUTH. For example, the Lord's supper or 'communion' as some would have it. Precious truth and indeed one which we will tenacioulsy (sp)adhere to. But twisted to mean something it was never intended to mean. In this context then please show me Scripture which will prove that a believer(a blood bought child of God) can spend his life in disobedince to Jesus and still ENTER the Millenial Kingdom?
And if he cannot ENTER the Kingdom then WHERE does he go? Hmmm? Remember, the Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers, not for the unbelievers. And did not Jesus say "many will say Lord, Lord..." And in another place we see that N
NE may call Him Lord but by the Holy Ghost. And again; in another place we see we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption. If God does the sealing then only God can undo the sealing. If no one can call Him Lord but by the Holy Ghost then no unbelievers will be there. So just exactly WHO is it that Jesus strongly warns to maintains good WORKS? And more importantly, WHY does He tell us to maintain good works if we are saved BY FAITH? Simply because although we are given eternal life through faith in Him we are NOT given the reward of reigning with Him but by our relationship to Him as obedient children of God.
Here is a partial list of PUBLISHED authors you can research if you would like.
Robert Govett 1813-1910
J.R. Graves
H.W. Fry
D.M. Panton 1870-1955
Watchman Nee
A. Edwin Wilson
Albert George Tilney
Oswald Jefferey Smith
Hudson Taylor (not sure if he is published, sorry)
Robert Thomas Ketcham 1889-1978
Dean Alford
C.G. Trumball
Charles G.A. Gibson-Smith
Daniel Paul Rader
William Frederick Roadhouse
George Henry Lang
Phillip Mauro
Jesse Penn-Lewis
Charles Spelman Utting
These may be found under "Accountability Truth" "Kingdom Exclusion for unfaithful Believers" or "Rewards and Punishments at the judgement Seat of Christ". (not titles but subject headings with which to do your own "studying to shew thyself approved unto God...a workman that needeth not to be....")
I could give you about a dozen other authors as well as the ancient chruch fathers who also taught this. But even if one were to come back from the dead, will ye then believe? (couldn't resist a little tiny bit of sarcasm.)(sorry)
In Him;
Jim
The answer to your question of feb 24, is that God's threats are not empty.
Bro. Bartholomew (sp) answered both positions quite well but he was dismissed out of hand without any further comment.
The key to both the Arminians and the Calvinists is that like the prophets of old who MISSED the duality of the prophecies of Christ, so too, have the 'theologians' of the church age missed the duality of the threats and promises.
On the one hand some see that there is SOMETHING which can never be lost. At the same time, others see SOMETHING which can be lost. How is this to be reconciled? Answer; the same way we have reconciled a suffering Messiah with a conquering Messiah. Take the WHOLE of Scripture and you will see a clear picture of TWO phases of the Same Person. In the same way when taken in their entirety, the Scriptures give us a dual picture of SALVATION. Messiah is TWO things just as SALVATION is two things.
Without writing a book on the subject ( which many have done for centuries throughout the last two millenia),let me try to re-state bro. Bart's position.
Where one sees eternal security, he is seeing his SALVATION as it pertains to eternity, age without end.
Where one sees the clear threat of losing something, he is seeing his SALVATION as it pertains to the Millenial Reign of Christ and his POSTION in it!
In answer to all your objections that this smacks of Romish purgatory, let me remind you all that the Judgement seat of Christ is not about ETERNAL SALVATION but is about rewards. May I also remind you that many precious truths of Scripture have been hijacked by the Roman church but it does not negate the TRUTH. For example, the Lord's supper or 'communion' as some would have it. Precious truth and indeed one which we will tenacioulsy (sp)adhere to. But twisted to mean something it was never intended to mean. In this context then please show me Scripture which will prove that a believer(a blood bought child of God) can spend his life in disobedince to Jesus and still ENTER the Millenial Kingdom?
And if he cannot ENTER the Kingdom then WHERE does he go? Hmmm? Remember, the Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers, not for the unbelievers. And did not Jesus say "many will say Lord, Lord..." And in another place we see that N
NE may call Him Lord but by the Holy Ghost. And again; in another place we see we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption. If God does the sealing then only God can undo the sealing. If no one can call Him Lord but by the Holy Ghost then no unbelievers will be there. So just exactly WHO is it that Jesus strongly warns to maintains good WORKS? And more importantly, WHY does He tell us to maintain good works if we are saved BY FAITH? Simply because although we are given eternal life through faith in Him we are NOT given the reward of reigning with Him but by our relationship to Him as obedient children of God.Here is a partial list of PUBLISHED authors you can research if you would like.
Robert Govett 1813-1910
J.R. Graves
H.W. Fry
D.M. Panton 1870-1955
Watchman Nee
A. Edwin Wilson
Albert George Tilney
Oswald Jefferey Smith
Hudson Taylor (not sure if he is published, sorry)
Robert Thomas Ketcham 1889-1978
Dean Alford
C.G. Trumball
Charles G.A. Gibson-Smith
Daniel Paul Rader
William Frederick Roadhouse
George Henry Lang
Phillip Mauro
Jesse Penn-Lewis
Charles Spelman Utting
These may be found under "Accountability Truth" "Kingdom Exclusion for unfaithful Believers" or "Rewards and Punishments at the judgement Seat of Christ". (not titles but subject headings with which to do your own "studying to shew thyself approved unto God...a workman that needeth not to be....")
I could give you about a dozen other authors as well as the ancient chruch fathers who also taught this. But even if one were to come back from the dead, will ye then believe? (couldn't resist a little tiny bit of sarcasm.)(sorry)
In Him;
Jim
DeafPosttrib
New Member
av1611jim,
I disagree.
That was your own logical about dual things. Why do you think that both Arminians and Calvinists both miss thing.
Many Christians have different views and intrpreting the Bible for many centuries.
Probbaly you mean that some of them seem not get the truth, or not understand compeletely what the Bible teaching on salvation.
There have been long debate about the salvation for a long time. Both agree Christ died on the cross for our sins. And both agree Christ rose from the death.
The debate is about the salvation doctrine, many have different views and interpreting scriptures on salvation.
Why do you think the Old Testament prophets miss the dual prophecies of Christ? Please give the example why do the O.T. prophets miss the dual things? I think, you mean, the Jews during Christ's time on earth, they thought Christ is the king to take over Roman Empire - NOW.
Also, I think, you mean that the Jews miss two advents of Christ, that they do not get it. I mean, they seem do not understand the dual prophecies of Christ.
Am I correct, according what you are talking about?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
I disagree.
That was your own logical about dual things. Why do you think that both Arminians and Calvinists both miss thing.
Many Christians have different views and intrpreting the Bible for many centuries.
Probbaly you mean that some of them seem not get the truth, or not understand compeletely what the Bible teaching on salvation.
There have been long debate about the salvation for a long time. Both agree Christ died on the cross for our sins. And both agree Christ rose from the death.
The debate is about the salvation doctrine, many have different views and interpreting scriptures on salvation.
Why do you think the Old Testament prophets miss the dual prophecies of Christ? Please give the example why do the O.T. prophets miss the dual things? I think, you mean, the Jews during Christ's time on earth, they thought Christ is the king to take over Roman Empire - NOW.
Also, I think, you mean that the Jews miss two advents of Christ, that they do not get it. I mean, they seem do not understand the dual prophecies of Christ.
Am I correct, according what you are talking about?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
And the debate continues to go on... Either you are saved or you are lost... Is there a saved/lost... You were saved before but because of what you didn't do now you are lost!... Or what about a lost/saved... You were lost before but because of what you did do now you are saved... Who saved who?... Did you save yourself?... Do you have the power within you to save yourself?... If you do how did you get it?... Not only that why was it given to you and not the other fellow?... Did you deserve it?... If you did doesn't that make you are better than the those who are still lost?... There are none righteous no not one for all have sinned (past tense) and come short of the glory of God!... So who is the ALL?
The fact of the matter remains there will be many in heaven who if we had the knowledge to understand how they got there in human logic we would just shake our heads saying well I don't know how he/she made it... We ALL make it by the grace of God and the sacrifice of the lamb of God and that is the only way any of us will get there... The purpose and plan of God according to scripture is that the lost are lost and cannot be saved eternally and the saved are saved eternally and cannot be lost... I'm so thankful it is in God's hands and not in the hands of men... Who wants to be saved by a committe?... Your lost!... No your saved!... Made a mistake lost again!... Did a good deed saved!... Opps messed up again lost!... What a cycle and what will you be in the end saved or lost?... You are saved!... You are saved!... Eternal savation is not a redo or a test! The Word Of God is not written that way... BTW for a little while I am back!... Just thought I would stir up the nest like I use to do!... How are you doing Brother Dallas?... Still see you are holding your own... If you want to see what I have been up to since I left the BB in August 2003 see an update on Brother Glen in the Other Discussions Forum... To those who don't know me I am Brother Glen... Love and Peace in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus!
[ February 26, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
The fact of the matter remains there will be many in heaven who if we had the knowledge to understand how they got there in human logic we would just shake our heads saying well I don't know how he/she made it... We ALL make it by the grace of God and the sacrifice of the lamb of God and that is the only way any of us will get there... The purpose and plan of God according to scripture is that the lost are lost and cannot be saved eternally and the saved are saved eternally and cannot be lost... I'm so thankful it is in God's hands and not in the hands of men... Who wants to be saved by a committe?... Your lost!... No your saved!... Made a mistake lost again!... Did a good deed saved!... Opps messed up again lost!... What a cycle and what will you be in the end saved or lost?... You are saved!... You are saved!... Eternal savation is not a redo or a test! The Word Of God is not written that way... BTW for a little while I am back!... Just thought I would stir up the nest like I use to do!... How are you doing Brother Dallas?... Still see you are holding your own... If you want to see what I have been up to since I left the BB in August 2003 see an update on Brother Glen in the Other Discussions Forum... To those who don't know me I am Brother Glen... Love and Peace in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus!
[ February 26, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Tyndale, if you understand that Salvation is based on FAITH alone, then it is logical that if one loses faith, one loses salvation.
God has put everything in place to cause the salvation of any and all who believe, that is who have faith. But faith itself is perishable and dependent upon the one having it. That is why we are encouraged by all of the bible authors to keep the faith, persist to the end, endure hardships, etc. KEEP THE FAITH BABY!
God has put everything in place to cause the salvation of any and all who believe, that is who have faith. But faith itself is perishable and dependent upon the one having it. That is why we are encouraged by all of the bible authors to keep the faith, persist to the end, endure hardships, etc. KEEP THE FAITH BABY!
So if I lose my Faith I lose my Salvation?... What of those who recanted their Faith... Lost?... Show me scripture and verse!... The Salvation of ALL God children are in Christ!... Is Salvation a commodity to be bought or sold?... What is the price and can you pay it?... The price was a sacrifice... Not of this earth!... Not made by human hands... ergo not polluted by sin!... Our Faith in him the Lamb Of God!... Not his Faith in us... All men have not Faith!... So where does it come from?... Mother and Daddy?... Inborn?... Inherit?... Faith comes from God and that is the only way anyone gets it heavenly delivered... Not of this earth... Not of this sinful building!... Brother Glen
Deafposttrib;
Not just the jews of Jesus' day missed it but for at least 400 years before Him. What I am saying is simply that throughout Scripture there is constant duality. God or the Devil. Truth or the Lie. Right or Wrong. Obey or Disobey. etc...Suffering Messiah or Conquering King. You get the idea. This Truth does not suddenly stop when Jesus reveals to us the nature of Salvation.
It is twofold. One part is about being saved in ETERNITY. The other part is about entering the KINGDOM.
Pretty simple. A child could understand it. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Except ye become as a child and are converted, ye shall in no wise enter the KINGDOM of Heaven." (emphasis added, and loosely quoted.)
In Him;
Jim
p.s. I gave you all plenty of reputable sources for your own study. It is now up to you to do so. Forget debate until you have done your homework. I have studied both sides for 20+ years until God led me to these sources and finally it all makes sense. The answer is Scriptural. sound, without error and (I believe) what God would have us do.
Have faith in the finished work of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for eternal salvation, then get busy and secure your place in His coming glorious Millenial Kingdom.
Not just the jews of Jesus' day missed it but for at least 400 years before Him. What I am saying is simply that throughout Scripture there is constant duality. God or the Devil. Truth or the Lie. Right or Wrong. Obey or Disobey. etc...Suffering Messiah or Conquering King. You get the idea. This Truth does not suddenly stop when Jesus reveals to us the nature of Salvation.
It is twofold. One part is about being saved in ETERNITY. The other part is about entering the KINGDOM.
Pretty simple. A child could understand it. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Except ye become as a child and are converted, ye shall in no wise enter the KINGDOM of Heaven." (emphasis added, and loosely quoted.)
In Him;
Jim
p.s. I gave you all plenty of reputable sources for your own study. It is now up to you to do so. Forget debate until you have done your homework. I have studied both sides for 20+ years until God led me to these sources and finally it all makes sense. The answer is Scriptural. sound, without error and (I believe) what God would have us do.
Have faith in the finished work of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for eternal salvation, then get busy and secure your place in His coming glorious Millenial Kingdom.
Tyndale, you know me well enough to know what my stance is on Salvation.
You should know that Salvation cannot be bought, sold, traded, or gained by one for another.
You should know that Jesus' once-for-all atonement for sin, covers all the sins of all time for all the world. Jesus took them ALL upon himself and paid the penalty for SIN in his own death upon that cruel Roman Cross. THEREFORE, Man does not have to pay the penalty for the sins that he commits, but instead may have everlasting life...HOW? John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish (die) but have everlasting life. Now, Atonement removed the penalty of sin from MANKIND, ALL MANKIND ALIKE!
Well, shoot, every body believes there was a Jesus, even satan and his demons do that! Ahhah! but the difference is that they do not believe in Jesus, they believe in themselves and their father of lies, they have aligned themselves to Satan, and do Satan's bidding.
So, What kind of faith does it take to have eternal life? The kind that endures to the end of this natural life, when the human spirit departs the human flesh. You see, it is HUMAN faith in God, and not God's faith in humans that saves the human. So, if you believe, then stop believing, you lose whatever it was that you believed in to begin with.
Well, there's always good works! Works do not bring SALVATION, for we cannot do enough, make enough, polish enough, dig deep enough, climb high enough, go far enough etc, to please God of our own doings, so WORKS are of no value to human salvation.
So what is left? FAITH and nothing else! SALVATION is by FAITH ALONE! Believe and you shall be saved. BUT! You gotta keep on believing, and that is cement of FAITH. If you believe in God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and never stop believing, Everlasting life is yours, Jesus promised it, and Jesus is the author of Life!
Salvation = FAITH!
Said another way FAITH = SALVATION!
But it only counts if Faith is all you have when you depart the house of flesh that you reside in. Nothing else matters, for nothing else can save you!
Skandelon;
Certainly it does. Don't you see it? What were the promises to Isreal? It was a literal, physical, visible, earthly Kingdom. Always was. We gentiles get in on those promises precisely because they (the Jews) REJECTED it. This is what Paul is addressing in this chapter. Why were they "cut off"? Because of unbelief. And so, too, will you, I and any other Christian be "cut off" from the Kingdom if we are guilty of the same unbelief. This passage does not, I repeat, does NOT address Eternal salvation. It is addressing the subject of the Kingdom for that is exactly what Isreal rejected, i.e. their KING.
As I have stated in my original post on this thread, the confusion between Arianism and Calvinism comes from misapplying Kingdom passages to Eternal Salvation passages.
One says you can lose it, another says you cannot (salvation). But what so many have missed is that Jesus, Paul and the other Scripture writers of the New Testament all taught two aspects of "salvation". Salvation in eternity and salvation in or more clearly 'into' the Kingdom.
For clarity let's look at some passages.
Go to Philippians 3:7-14. As you read this passage can you honestly say Paul is in fear of losing his Eternal salvation or is he genuinely concerned that he might miss the first resurrection? And just WHAT is the prize? This prize is a reward not a gift. The gift of God is eternal life but the prize is the reward of entrance into the Kingdom.
Go to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Why is Paul, (perhaps the 'greatest' christian ever) so fearful of being a 'cast away'? Paul is not here speaking of salvation but a Crown. This is the prize. The reward. The promise.
Go to Matthew 24:44-51. Jesus never told stories and parables just to hear Himself talk. He never wasted ONE word in idle chatter but was always doing the work of the Father. Therefore we see a certain TRUTH Jesus is telling us. These are not "real" servants and "fake" servants. See vs 49, Jesus said 'fellow'servants. Therefore ALL the servants in this passage can represent believers and not just imitators or professors as some would have it. Ain't it amazing how some will get out their penknife and delete the warnings while appropriating the promises?
What did Jesus say to HIS DISCIPLES? (loosely quoted) "I'll tell ya who ya should fear, fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"
Now if my soul is saved by faith and I am saved then why fear hell? Simple, just exactly where do you think an unfaithful believer will go if "the unbelieving" cannot enter the Kingdom? As was stated somewhere on this same BB, "all sin is unbelief" (At least I think it was on this board, in any case the fact remains, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin'.) And you can be assured, unfaithfulness IS sin. BUT!!!! some would instantly respond, Jesus paid for all sin. And I agree, He certainly did. But which of you earthly fathers will let his kid continue in disobedince ad infinitum. Won't you fahters come down hard on the kid as the situation merits it? As Jesus said it another way, "If ye then being evil know how to give good gifts to his children..." And conversely, don't you think Our Heavenly Father not only bestows many good and gracious gifts but also chastises severely? And what makes you think that God gives good gifts both in this life and in the life to come but ONLY punishes in this life? For if "ye be not chastised then are ye bastards and no more sons of God."
Think, pray, study, pray, dump your prejudices, pray, study about this. It answers the debate clearly. Other men more qualified than I have reached the same conclusion all down through the history of the church of the Living God.
At the Judgement seat of Christ He will mete out both rewards and punishment to HIS CHILDREN.
But even though He may punish His children by "grounding them from the Kingdom (so to speak), He still loves them and will not revoke their ETERNAL relationship with Him from them. See Revelation 20:13-15. Here we have an interesting 'whosoever'. The implication jumps right off the page at you. Why in the world would HELL give up its dead? Puzzling? Why look in the book of life if there are not any at all who are there. Evidently some will be there. These are they who MISSED the Kingdom, the children of God who God had 'grounded' from the Kingdom. They are not cast into the lake of fire but are granted entrance into the new heaven and new earth, Revelation 21:1. Jump to vs 4 in Revelation 21. Why, o why would God wipe away all tears if there are not SOME who had missed the Kingdom and are now weeping so? then go to another warning, Revelation 21:7. Notice the ALL THINGS. Some inherit only new Jerusalem, but the OVERCOMER also inherits the Kingdom prior to the New Jerusalem. This fellow gets to rule the nations WITH Jesus for 1000 yrs, but not everybody does. Only the overcomers. Look again at what Paul was striving to attain and then look at Revelation 20:5-6.
Well, like I said, this could turn into a book, but many have already done it explaining WAY WAY better than I what God is telling us in His Holy Book.
Trust Jesus for eternal life and then obey Him for your place in His Kingdom.
In Him;
Jim
Certainly it does. Don't you see it? What were the promises to Isreal? It was a literal, physical, visible, earthly Kingdom. Always was. We gentiles get in on those promises precisely because they (the Jews) REJECTED it. This is what Paul is addressing in this chapter. Why were they "cut off"? Because of unbelief. And so, too, will you, I and any other Christian be "cut off" from the Kingdom if we are guilty of the same unbelief. This passage does not, I repeat, does NOT address Eternal salvation. It is addressing the subject of the Kingdom for that is exactly what Isreal rejected, i.e. their KING.
As I have stated in my original post on this thread, the confusion between Arianism and Calvinism comes from misapplying Kingdom passages to Eternal Salvation passages.
One says you can lose it, another says you cannot (salvation). But what so many have missed is that Jesus, Paul and the other Scripture writers of the New Testament all taught two aspects of "salvation". Salvation in eternity and salvation in or more clearly 'into' the Kingdom.
For clarity let's look at some passages.
Go to Philippians 3:7-14. As you read this passage can you honestly say Paul is in fear of losing his Eternal salvation or is he genuinely concerned that he might miss the first resurrection? And just WHAT is the prize? This prize is a reward not a gift. The gift of God is eternal life but the prize is the reward of entrance into the Kingdom.
Go to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Why is Paul, (perhaps the 'greatest' christian ever) so fearful of being a 'cast away'? Paul is not here speaking of salvation but a Crown. This is the prize. The reward. The promise.
Go to Matthew 24:44-51. Jesus never told stories and parables just to hear Himself talk. He never wasted ONE word in idle chatter but was always doing the work of the Father. Therefore we see a certain TRUTH Jesus is telling us. These are not "real" servants and "fake" servants. See vs 49, Jesus said 'fellow'servants. Therefore ALL the servants in this passage can represent believers and not just imitators or professors as some would have it. Ain't it amazing how some will get out their penknife and delete the warnings while appropriating the promises?
What did Jesus say to HIS DISCIPLES? (loosely quoted) "I'll tell ya who ya should fear, fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"
Now if my soul is saved by faith and I am saved then why fear hell? Simple, just exactly where do you think an unfaithful believer will go if "the unbelieving" cannot enter the Kingdom? As was stated somewhere on this same BB, "all sin is unbelief" (At least I think it was on this board, in any case the fact remains, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin'.) And you can be assured, unfaithfulness IS sin. BUT!!!! some would instantly respond, Jesus paid for all sin. And I agree, He certainly did. But which of you earthly fathers will let his kid continue in disobedince ad infinitum. Won't you fahters come down hard on the kid as the situation merits it? As Jesus said it another way, "If ye then being evil know how to give good gifts to his children..." And conversely, don't you think Our Heavenly Father not only bestows many good and gracious gifts but also chastises severely? And what makes you think that God gives good gifts both in this life and in the life to come but ONLY punishes in this life? For if "ye be not chastised then are ye bastards and no more sons of God."
Think, pray, study, pray, dump your prejudices, pray, study about this. It answers the debate clearly. Other men more qualified than I have reached the same conclusion all down through the history of the church of the Living God.
At the Judgement seat of Christ He will mete out both rewards and punishment to HIS CHILDREN.
But even though He may punish His children by "grounding them from the Kingdom (so to speak), He still loves them and will not revoke their ETERNAL relationship with Him from them. See Revelation 20:13-15. Here we have an interesting 'whosoever'. The implication jumps right off the page at you. Why in the world would HELL give up its dead? Puzzling? Why look in the book of life if there are not any at all who are there. Evidently some will be there. These are they who MISSED the Kingdom, the children of God who God had 'grounded' from the Kingdom. They are not cast into the lake of fire but are granted entrance into the new heaven and new earth, Revelation 21:1. Jump to vs 4 in Revelation 21. Why, o why would God wipe away all tears if there are not SOME who had missed the Kingdom and are now weeping so? then go to another warning, Revelation 21:7. Notice the ALL THINGS. Some inherit only new Jerusalem, but the OVERCOMER also inherits the Kingdom prior to the New Jerusalem. This fellow gets to rule the nations WITH Jesus for 1000 yrs, but not everybody does. Only the overcomers. Look again at what Paul was striving to attain and then look at Revelation 20:5-6.
Well, like I said, this could turn into a book, but many have already done it explaining WAY WAY better than I what God is telling us in His Holy Book.
Trust Jesus for eternal life and then obey Him for your place in His Kingdom.
In Him;
Jim
After re-reading my post, I figured I should double check a couple things.
First; Pete, it is to you I should have attributed my loose quote about all sin being in essence unbelief. My apologies.
Second; Skandelon, I apologize to you also. You did indeed address Bartholomew's answer to your question. What I misunderstood as dismissing out of hand was IMO a little simplistic. Again, I apologize. I hope my above post more fully addresses both your question about the subject passage in Romans, and the issue of A-vs-C.
In Him;
Jim
First; Pete, it is to you I should have attributed my loose quote about all sin being in essence unbelief. My apologies.
Second; Skandelon, I apologize to you also. You did indeed address Bartholomew's answer to your question. What I misunderstood as dismissing out of hand was IMO a little simplistic. Again, I apologize. I hope my above post more fully addresses both your question about the subject passage in Romans, and the issue of A-vs-C.
In Him;
Jim
Bartholomew
New Member
Hi Jim,
I agree with just about everything you said! I posted a message about this - that the "fear" of this and other passages was a fear of missing the kingdom - though have not posted anything else here since then. The reason was simply that I didn't have time - though I'll try to post a few more messages in the next few weeks. Keep on preaching the truth!
Your friend and brother,
Bartholomew
I agree with just about everything you said! I posted a message about this - that the "fear" of this and other passages was a fear of missing the kingdom - though have not posted anything else here since then. The reason was simply that I didn't have time - though I'll try to post a few more messages in the next few weeks. Keep on preaching the truth!
Your friend and brother,
Bartholomew
Bartholomew
New Member
Hi brother!
Quite - that's why we need to ask for forgiveness, turn round, and live for God. But just in case people have forgotten which passages we're talking about, let's just look at one of these passages again:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)
Remember that the standard interpretation of these verses is that they mean real Chrsitians won't do these bad things. Your comments show that the standard interpretation can't be right.
But how do you get this understanding from the verse, or from its context? When Paul says "unrighteous" he does not just mean the unsaved. We know this because he immeadiately explains what he means by "unrighteous": those who are "fornicators, "idolaters", "adulterers", "effeminate", "abusers of themselves with mankind", "thieves", "covetous", "drunkards", "revilers", or "extortioners." And as you pointed out, believers can be guilty of these things.
This is shown by the context, to. For example, the three verses preceeding this passage read:
"But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." (1 Cor 6:6-8)
This CLEARLY teaches that the believers are defrauding each other. This quite probably puts these believers in the category of the "thieves", "coveteous" and "extortioners" of the very next sentence. Equally, the first sin named as disqualifying us from the kingdom is "fornication", which is revealed to have been committed by a believer in that church (in the previous chapter):
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you." (1 Cor 5:1-2)
Equally, chapters 6 and 7 go on to warn of the dangers of fornication, as if commiting this sin is a very real possibility.
So you see, 1 Cor 6:9-10 is a very REAL warning to believers, just as Romans 11 is (as you rightly point out).
There is only a problem if, as you assume, the kingdom of God is the same as heaven. But this cannot be so for several reasons.
Firstly, in the Old Testament, Daniel tells us that the kingdom of God will be set up when Christ returns and destroys the gentile empires:
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Dan 2:44)
What kingdom does God set up immeadiately after ("in the days of") destroying the Gentile kingdoms? It is the millennial kingdom, not the new heaven and earth, and much less heaven that exists now. Equally, in Luke 21, after Jesus tells us about the tribualtion and his second coming, he states:
"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." (Luke 21:31)
What kingdom is set up straight after the tribulation and Jesus' second coming? It is the millennial kingdom, not the new heaven and earth, and much less heaven that exists now. Similarly, in Luke 19 we learn:
"And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." (Luke 19:11-12)
Here we learn that the people were wrong in thinking that the Kingdom of God was going to appear immeadiately, and that Jesus would have to depart (ascend to heaven) to recieve it, but then return. What follows is the parable of the pounds. In verse 15 we read:
"And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading."
Ah, so now we know Jesus will have the kingdom when he returns. But what kingdom does Jesus have when he returns? It is the millennial kingdom, not the new heaven and earth, and much less heaven that exists now. But wait - there's more in this parable. In fact, we learn that at Jesus' coming with his kingdom, he will judge his servants [unbelievers are NOT his servants!] according to what they have done with what he enrusted to them (cf. "the judgement seat of Christ"). Those who do well will be rewarded with reign in the kingdom. v.17:
"And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities."
But to those who don't... (v. 24,26)
"And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds... For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."
This is quite different from reign in the kingdom! Indeed, a very similar passage in Matt 25 says the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness! So how can he still be saved? Simple: HE will be banished to outer-darkness for the duration of the kingdom; but Rev 20 tells us that at the end of the 1000 years, death and hell will give up the dead that are in them, and they will be judged by God. Whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. But since this man is saved, he WILL be found in the book of life, which means he WON'T be cast into the lake of fire. So you see, he misses the kingdom, but remains saved, and enters the new heaven and earth.
I hope that helps!
