The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?

[Frogman]

Doesn't the osas argument against Calvinism ignore the doctrine of perserverance?

Thanks Abiyah, the above thought is attributable to your post.

And doesn't it sometimes "seem" to emphasize works? This thought attributed to my wife's uncle (a Church of God minister). We were discussing this yesterday. He stated that he has known many people who have had the fruits of the Spirit etc. who now are not exhibiting that in any way whatsoever. How does this prove they have fallen away into condemnation? Isn't this based upon our judgement?
Bro. Dallas

 

[Abiyah]

Works. The branch of Arminianism I was involved in was ALL works, when it came to earning one's spot in Heaven, but works seemed to be ignored when it came to defining sin. The definition of sin was nearly nil; biblical definitions almost all ignored. It is a horrid experience, as the Light dawns upon such an Arminian-believer, when they begin to realize what sinners they truly are.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Having been of the Arminian persuasion for nearly 50 years, my personal jury is still out regarding whether or not one can lose their salvation, but with your statement above, it makes me wonder who you base this premise upon. Good night, in all the years in which I have known any Calvinists, I have known only one (count her -- 1) person who believed in the manner you wrote above!

Abiyah, I was a Calvinist for many years and I agree, not many Calvinists teach a easy believism/ticket to heaven type of salvation. I'm not so much critiqing 5 pointers as I am the main stream quasi 3 pointers who emphasize OSAS to the neglect of "considering the cost of being a disciple."

I have critiques for Calvinism but that is not what I was trying to address in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Skandelon]

No one, with the possible exception of Bartholmew, actually answered by question. Let me repeat it...

It was: If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

Don't get me wrong I appreciate all of the responses but I am fimiliar with all of these arguments. I know about there being no fear in love, but I also know that fear is the beginning of wisdom. I know fear is a motivator for the apostles and that fear (by whatever defination) has its place in our Christian journey. My question has to do with Paul calling Gentile believers to fear being "cut off." If he does not mean losing ones salvation, then what does he mean?

Bartholomew, I appreciate your answer but I don't see how that theory can have any support. If those verses you listed were talking about the 1000 year reign being the "kingdom of God" then I don't think anyone will qualify to be there. Do you? I mean who hasn't coveted for example. These verses seem to be saying no sinner can go to heaven on their own merit but only in the imputed righteousness of Christ. I don't see eternal heaven and the phrase "kingdom of God" being two seperate things. Plus, in regard to Romans 11 how can one be "cut off" from the kingdom of God but still have eternal life in heaven? I don't get that.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by AllOfGrace:

The logic used by people that say you can lose your salvation is that, because I warn the child that means that I have the intention of allowing it to happen. That is not a solid assumption. God can (and does) warn us about falling away without having any intention of allowing it to happen.

I stand corrected. This is also addressing my question.

Are you saying that God makes empty threats? If so, then again who are we, as theologians, to remove the fear of that threat for the children who may need to heed the warning? By telling laypeople, "When God warns us about falling away he is not really going to allow that to happen." Don't we remove the purpose of the threat by removing its validity? Who are we to undermine God's ulimatums by telling people, "he doesn't really mean it, He just says that to scare you back into submission."

I can't go along with that.

 

[Pete Richert]

I think the fundlemental problem with both sides of this discussion is we have abstracted faith away from obedience, as if we could believe God was telling the truth, and then not do what he says to do. When we trust in God, we will be obedient by definition.

God says, "do this"
If I believe God that it is good for me, I will do it.

Every sin is simply our going public that we don't actually trust what God says or does. Adam sinned because he didn't believe God, instead he believed the devil.

No everyone gets all up in arms here and says, "how much obedience?" which is really a silly question because clearly non of us our even remotly obedient. What it demonstrates is that we have a long way to go in trusting in God, which will only be made perfect after death. My answer to have much faith we need is any faith at all, for indeed only those whom God has regenerated, forgiven, and indwelt with the holy Spirit have any ability to trust in God, and God has promised to work His transforming work in that individul until judgement day and beyond.

James chapter 2 is very real. When James went looking to see if these saints believed into God, his examples our all actions on their part, actions that stemmed from the trust that what God said was true, even to the point that Abraham believed so much that Issac would be the heir of the promise he figured that God was going to raise him from the dead.

Believing in God is not just how we are saved, it is salvation itself. We are not just saved from hell with a ticket to heaven with no earthy consequences, we are saved from the domain of sin where we hate and despise God into a new people who trust and depend on God for everything, the very thing God wanted in the first place. Our remaining sin in our life (which we all have ample of) demonstrates that we live between two ages, and God has not decided to transform us instantly but instead of a process of trials and tribulations where we learn to trust him more and more, on into eternity. Lingering acts of disobedience, which is simply lingering acts of unbelief, do not bar us from heaven nor remove us from the standing of being in the people of God, since God Himself, in his mercy, has offered forgivess of sins through the death of His Son. That mercy is just as good before we first believed as much as it is as we stumble on the way. To God be the glory!

 

[Abiyah]

God says, "do this"
If I believe God that it is good for me, I will do it.

Every sin is simply our going public that we don't actually trust what God says or does.

This should go down as one of the greatest BB quotations.

 

[Yelsew2]

I think a major stumblingblock in seeing the truth about preservation (note, I don't use the word perseverence. If I endure it is because I am preserved, not persevere) is the warnings in the scripture.

You are reading that into scripture, because it is not there.

That which is preserved is usually always put in storage or set upon the shelf, as in Rasberry preserves, or perhaps painted to preserve it from rust, or specially packaged to protect from the elements, etc.

That which perseveres is engaged in an ongoing continuance. Jesus did not put his disciples on the shelf but gave them traveling orders! So if you are a disciple of Christ, GET DOWN OFF THE SHELF and get busy persevering!

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
No one, with the possible exception of Bartholmew, actually answered by question. Let me repeat it...

It was: If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

Don't get me wrong I appreciate all of the responses but I am fimiliar with all of these arguments. I know about there being no fear in love, but I also know that fear is the beginning of wisdom. I know fear is a motivator for the apostles and that fear (by whatever defination) has its place in our Christian journey. My question has to do with Paul calling Gentile believers to fear being "cut off." If he does not mean losing ones salvation, then what does he mean?

Bartholomew, I appreciate your answer but I don't see how that theory can have any support. If those verses you listed were talking about the 1000 year reign being the "kingdom of God" then I don't think anyone will qualify to be there. Do you? I mean who hasn't coveted for example. These verses seem to be saying no sinner can go to heaven on their own merit but only in the imputed righteousness of Christ. I don't see eternal heaven and the phrase "kingdom of God" being two seperate things. Plus, in regard to Romans 11 how can one be "cut off" from the kingdom of God but still have eternal life in heaven? I don't get that.

Romans 11:19-24 is not about individual Gentile believers being "cut off"--this is a prophetic reference to the Rise of the Roman Church

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Hamtramck_Mike:
Romans 11:19-24 is not about individual Gentile believers being "cut off"--this is a prophetic reference to the Rise of the Roman Church

Oh now your just being goofy. Where do find a basis for this and is their any published authors who you can site that support these claims so I can actually read them for myself, or are you just pulling this stuff from your imagination.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hamtramck_Mike:
Romans 11:19-24 is not about individual Gentile believers being "cut off"--this is a prophetic reference to the Rise of the Roman Church

Oh now your just being goofy. Where do find a basis for this and is their any published authors who you can site that support these claims so I can actually read them for myself, or are you just pulling this stuff from your imagination. </font>[/QUOTE]Where is the church at Rome now? Or to rephrase, what has the church at Rome become?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Hamtramck_Mike:
Where is the church at Rome now? Or to rephrase, what has the church at Rome become?

Well, I've got a cousin who lives in Rome who have a regular bible study each week in there home. I'm sure there are many other fine believers in Rome. The church is God's people, not a building or denomination. Plus, even if you apply being "cut off" to the believers in Rome who made up the Roman Church it doesn't do away with the problem this verse creates for Calvinists. According to Paul they have to be cut off because of their pride. What does "cut off" mean? It means they were once attached. Can the church of Rome and the individuals that make up that church lose their salvation? Please explain.

 

[Yelsew2]

AllofGrace,

The logic used by people that say you can lose your salvation is that, because I warn the child that means that I have the intention of allowing it to happen. That is not a solid assumption. God can (and does) warn us about falling away without having any intention of allowing it to happen.

Then you fail to understand that faith is mental and spiritual. It is experiential only in what it does to the one who has it. If the one who has it becomes persuaded through subterfuge that God is too far away to be concerned with or that maybe there is no God, or maybe the God of Israel is not concerned with me, or maybe He will look the other way for a moment, etc., that is a falling away, and it may be slow and incidental, or it may be as sudden as a bolt of lightning. The point being that "falling away from the faith" is a matter of individual persuasion, not a matter of someone pulling you or shoving you away from God by force, that simply cannot happen!

A similar situation is one who, with great enthusiasm, joins an organization, works his way into the niche, then becomes dissolusioned over time and quits the organization. The organization did nothing to cause that, the person had a change of persuasion based upon his perceptions of the organization, its goals, and accomplishments, and the person may have been attracted away from the organization by something the person perceived to be of more interest to him. FAITH works the same way. And if you can gain faith you can lose faith, it's up to you!

Faith in God, in God the Son, is not really different, except that now if your faith is in the person(s) of God and not just the "organization" of God the Son's church, then you have a "marriage situation". Marriage takes committment. God is totally committed to his "spouse", it is the spouse that needs the same type and level of committment to God. That kind of faith cannot be lost, because it has the pulling power of God, and the attraction power of man to that "marriage", and it is truly a marriage "made in Heaven". It is personal faith in the person of God, and not simply a devotion to general God-ness.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think a major stumblingblock in seeing the truth about preservation (note, I don't use the word perseverence. If I endure it is because I am preserved, not persevere) is the warnings in the scripture.

You are reading that into scripture, because it is not there.

That which is preserved is usually always put in storage or set upon the shelf, as in Rasberry preserves, or perhaps painted to preserve it from rust, or specially packaged to protect from the elements, etc.

That which perseveres is engaged in an ongoing continuance. Jesus did not put his disciples on the shelf but gave them traveling orders! So if you are a disciple of Christ, GET DOWN OFF THE SHELF and get busy persevering! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes and we perservere only because we are preserved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Do any of the things you mention above preserve or perservere in their natural condition? No, not one. Therefore, the analogy is not possible apart from an outside action. This action is through the Holy Spirit of God. By that action upon the individual believer, then there is the active engagement you speak of above.


Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

Do any of the things you mention above preserve or perservere in their natural condition? No, not one. Therefore, the analogy is not possible apart from an outside action. This action is through the Holy Spirit of God. By that action upon the individual believer, then there is the active engagement you speak of above.

What then is the difference between one who perseveres in sin, and one who perseveres in righteousness? The act of perseverence is the same, the motivation to persevere is the difference!

The unbeliever perseveres not having a single motivation or focal point. The believer perseveres because of singular focus and objective.

Even so, perseverence is perseverence! Believers are admonished to persevere to the end, because there is the distinct possibility of losing one's focus. When one loses focus, one's objective becomes blurred, and one may move away from the path. That is why we are to persevere. Keep your ship, which could go an infinite number of directions, on course by holding the objective in focus and steering toward it, and only it.

 

[Frogman]

The difference is the believer has the Holy
Spirit as ship captain and the unbeliever does not.

The difference lays in perserverance by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This when traced to its source is accomplished by the Grace of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Brother Dallas;
I've read a lot of your post. You always seem to be very cordial. I'd like to ask if you can show a clear scripture that says when we are saved that we will always be saved. I've been shown scripture that people use to back up this doctrine,but not one ever cleraly says we have security in our Salvation. There are how ever several that say we can loose our Salvation and say it clearly.
The biggest problem I have with it is that OSAS is the pure sepculation of someone with wishful thinking. This promotes Christians to go ahead and sin all the want to. I mean why not there eternally secure. No matter what they do they will never taste spiritual death.
IMHO This is one doctrine that cannot be backed up with scripture. I wish this weren't so. Can you prove from scripture that it is.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The difference is the believer has the Holy
Spirit as ship captain and the unbeliever does not.

The difference lays in perserverance by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This when traced to its source is accomplished by the Grace of God.

Bro. Dallas

If accomplished "by the grace of God" then why does Jesus, and Paul and Peter, tell us mere humans to do the persevering? If it is a task for "Grace to do", why command us to do it?

Haven't You learned that Grace is a behavioral trait of the one who has it? Grace, itself, is powerless to cause someone else to do anything, while at the same time being that which enables others to be or do that which is required by the one behaving in accordance with grace.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Brother Dallas;
I've read a lot of your post. You always seem to be very cordial. I'd like to ask if you can show a clear scripture that says when we are saved that we will always be saved. I've been shown scripture that people use to back up this doctrine,but not one ever cleraly says we have security in our Salvation. There are how ever several that say we can loose our Salvation and say it clearly.
The biggest problem I have with it is that OSAS is the pure sepculation of someone with wishful thinking. This promotes Christians to go ahead and sin all the want to. I mean why not there eternally secure. No matter what they do they will never taste spiritual death.
IMHO This is one doctrine that cannot be backed up with scripture. I wish this weren't so. Can you prove from scripture that it is.
May God Bless You;
Mike

If you don't mind sir, I've got a few key verses I usually use to explain why I believe in eternal security. This isn't the full version, because I'm assuming Dallas will be giving a much better explanation than I ever could!

2COR 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

2COR 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

EPH 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


EPH 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The above verses all speak of us being sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has seven functions, one of which is the Spirit of promise. There's also the Spirit of adoption, Spirit of truth, Spirit of Christ, etc. BTW you can look all of them up, but it's easiest to do it using the KJV because it's the only one I've found (so far) that capitalizes the word Spirit in these instances, but that's another story.

Anyhow, the promise is eternal life, (meaning life with Christ, the opposite is eternal death, which is life in hell with Satan) and the Spirit of promise seals that to us. We are sealed "unto the day of redemption". When redemption comes we will have the seal of Christ in us and be able to be redeemed. Christ will come and redeem the purchase bought with his blood, the purchase which has been sealed unto that time comes. If you do not believe in soul sleep this time is when your body dies, if you do believe in it then it's the day Christ returns. (I've met people who believe in either or, that's why I put that in there) Either way, that's the promise of God, eternal life, and it is sealed to us, bought with a price, and nobody can take His purchase out of his hand. It's bought and paid for. No refunds. LOL

I know you've probably heard this a million times, but it doesn't lessen the truth of it. If God promises you eternal salvation and then you believe you had salvation for 10 years and lost it, it isn't salvation. You believe he lied.
Gina

 

[Skandelon]

Gina, it seems you are speculating here. You are assuming that when Paul said that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit that must mean we can't be unsealed. Is there something in this text, or another one that teaches us that being "sealed" means perminantly, or could it mean as long as you continue in the faith you are sealed. Do you see what I'm asking? Where do you get the defination of sealing that means "can't be undone?" I can seal my sandwich in a zip lock but that doesn't mean I can't unseal it in the same way. I'm not trying to make light of this by using this analogy, but I'm making the point that "sealing" doesn't have to mean OSAS unless that interpretation is provided for us by the text.

Also, Gina I'm curious as to what Paul is telling the Gentiles believers to fear in Romans 11:20? Thanks