The Fight Against Free-Will Works Religion

[37818]

I was of the mind that Adam and Eve were created totally with an innocent nature.

When they sinned, by choice they fell to the state of the sinful nature, thereby passing it on to all.

Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

 

[canadyjd]

I was of the mind that Adam and Eve were created totally with an innocent nature.

When they sinned, by choice they fell to the state of the sinful nature, thereby passing it on to all.

I agree that their nature was not yet sinful.

As scholars have stated….

Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve were able to not sin.

After the fall, all of humanity has been unable to keep from sinning.

After the rapture, when we are joined in Heaven with our Lord Jesus, we will no longer be able to sin.

I don’t disagree that Adam and Eve’s human will was able to not sin prior to the fall. Their will was free in the sense they didn’t have a sin nature.

But they weren’t “free” from outside influences, were they? Eve was deceived. Adam sinned willingly when offered the chance by Eve.

Regardless, using Adam and Eve as examples of human beings having “free will” to obey God seems like a strange argument to me since they both disobeyed.

None but Jesus has obeyed God perfectly, as He demands. That means there is no example in human history of a human being using their “free will” to seek and obey God as He demands.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

I agree that their nature was not yet sinful.

As scholars have stated….

Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve were able to not sin.

After the fall, all of humanity has been unable to keep from sinning.

After the rapture, when we are joined in Heaven with our Lord Jesus, we will no longer be able to sin.

I don’t disagree that Adam and Eve’s human will was able to not sin prior to the fall. Their will was free in the sense they didn’t have a sin nature.

But they weren’t “free” from outside influences, were they? Eve was deceived. Adam sinned willingly when offered the chance by Eve.

Regardless, using Adam and Eve as examples of human beings having “free will” to obey God seems like a strange argument to me since they both disobeyed.

None but Jesus has obeyed God perfectly, as He demands. That means there is no example in human history of a human being using their “free will” to seek and obey God as He demands.

Peace to you

Yes, I agree! God gave them the choice to believe Him (not to eat of that tree) or Satan (who lied to them).

Through the lure of the lust of the flesh, Eve chose to believe Satan and Adam for whatever reason followed suit.

The point is that God gives man free will to choose his own way, even though He knows the best way is to follow Him.

But He will not force man to go His way, He honors man's decision to accept Him or deny Him.

 

[Van]

No one “addresses” your continuous nonsense because it isn’t worth the time to correct you again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again………

You rewrite scripture, literally, in an attempt to force your man made philosophy upon it. That makes you the false teacher, though you are blind to that truth

That is why you continuously fail in your attempt to destroy the doctrines of Grace.

You can’t handle the TRUTH of God’s Word. So you make up your own version. It’s Van’s Word, not God’s Word.

Peace to you

When a Calvinist posts one of their favorite, You, You, You against the person fallacies, they are confessing to their own behavior.

Lets take Luke 13:24 and see who rewrites it to claim that many natural, non-indwelt people do not seek the narrow door because they did not find it. This is redefining the meaning of seeking to be finding. Who does that?

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I agree! God gave them the choice to believe Him (not to eat of that tree) or Satan (who lied to them).

Through the lure of the lust of the flesh, Eve chose to believe Satan and Adam for whatever reason followed suit.

The point is that God gives man free will to choose his own way, even though He knows the best way is to follow Him.

But He will not force man to go His way, He honors man's decision to accept Him or deny Him.

God gave two human beings, Adam and Eve, the choice to obey Him through the use of their human will, free from a sin nature.

They both failed. Now, all of humanity has a sin nature that prevents them from choosing to obey God unless God intervenes.

I thank God that He did not “honor” my decisions that were enslaved to a sin nature, totally corrupted and with no desire to please God.

If God “honors” our decisions made with a corrupted, sinful nature, and refuses to intervene, the whole world is doomed to die in their sins.

But see what great love God has for us, that while we yet sinners, doomed to die and be separated from God for all eternity, Christ died for us.

“Free will” is a lie straight from the mouth of Satan that if we had the knowledge of good and evil, we would be like God. Although Adam and Eve knew good and evil as God knows, they were not “like” God in the ability to always choose good instead of evil.

Instead, their very natures were corrupted, and knowing good and evil, they knew they stood condemned by God and worthy of death, so they hid from God.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Double post

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

God gave two human beings, Adam and Eve, the choice to obey Him through the use of their human will, free from a sin nature.

They both failed. Now, all of humanity has a sin nature that prevents them from choosing to obey God unless God intervenes.

I thank God that He did not “honor” my decisions that were enslaved to a sin nature, totally corrupted and with no desire to please God.

If God “honors” our decisions made with a corrupted, sinful nature, and refuses to intervene, the whole world is doomed to die in their sins.

But see what great love God has for us, that while we yet sinners, doomed to die and be separated from God for all eternity, Christ died for us.

“Free will” is a lie straight from the mouth of Satan that if we had the knowledge of good and evil, we would be like God. Although Adam and Eve knew good and evil as God knows, they were not “like” God in the ability to always choose good instead of evil.

Instead, their very natures were corrupted, and knowing good and evil, they knew they stood condemned by God and worthy of death, so they hid from God.

Peace to you

Free will is exercised by man when the barrier of total depravity is broken by the Holy Spirit at the hearing of God's Word.

As I've repeatedly said, there is example after example found in Scripture.

I'm still in the deciding mode as to whether the Calvinists can't understand this and apply it, or they don't want to understand it.

 

[Charlie24]

Free will is exercised by man when the barrier of total depravity is broken by the Holy Spirit at the hearing of God's Word.

As I've repeatedly said, there is example after example found in Scripture.

I'm still in the deciding mode as to whether the Calvinists can't understand this and apply it, or they don't want to understand it.

Man/woman can hear the Gospel all day long, but until the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, man/woman cant' make a response to God. They are dead in trespass and sins.

 

[Van]

Some say there is a barrier to hearing and understanding the gospel, because they are "the things" of the Spirit of God, and natural people (non-indwelt people) are unable to understand spiritual milk. However, since Paul spoke to natural people, non-indwelt "men of flesh," using spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food, scripture indicates natural people have limited spiritual ability, able to understand milk but not solid food.

So the use of the term "free will" indicates support for a false viewpoint, fallen people are not constrained by the purview God allows, which is nonsense. If those dissing the topic addressed "limited spiritual ability" that would result in edification and enlightenment.

Luke 13:24 teaches natural people, non-indwelt men of flesh, seek the narrow door so any claim being "spiritually dead in sin" precludes response to spiritual milk is hogwash.

 

[Charlie24]

Some say there is a barrier to hearing and understanding the gospel, because they are "the things" of the Spirit of God, and natural people (non-indwelt people) are unable to understand spiritual milk. However, since Paul spoke to natural people, non-indwelt "men of flesh," using spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food, scripture indicates natural people have limited spiritual ability, able to understand milk but not solid food.

So the use of the term "free will" indicates support for a false viewpoint, fallen people are not constrained by the purview God allows, which is nonsense. If those dissing the topic addressed "limited spiritual ability" that would result in edification and enlightenment.

Luke 13:24 teaches natural people, non-indwelt men of flesh, seek the narrow door so any claim being "spiritually dead in sin" precludes response to spiritual milk is hogwash.

This reminds me of the rhetoric from the reformers. Thank God for Calvin, Luther, etc. they got us out of that Catholic heresy, but they needed some reforming of their own. There were some of the reformers who got it right, the less known, behind the scenes. They recognized free will, But Calvin and others like him took the front stage.

 

[canadyjd]

Free will is exercised by man when the barrier of total depravity is broken by the Holy Spirit at the hearing of God's Word.

As I've repeatedly said, there is example after example found in Scripture.

I'm still in the deciding mode as to whether the Calvinists can't understand this and apply it, or they don't want to understand it.

What is the human will “free” from?

I don’t think our beliefs are very far apart

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

What is the human will “free” from?

I don’t think our beliefs are very far apart

Peace to you

It's not a matter of being free from, it's a matter of God creating Adam and Eve with the free will to choose.

Just as their sin nature was passed down to us, so was the free will to choose.

They exercised that free will in the Garden when they chose to believe Satan rather than God.

 

[canadyjd]

It's not a matter of being free from, it's a matter of God creating Adam and Eve with the free will to choose.

Just as their sin nature was passed down to us, so was the free will to choose.

They exercised that free will in the Garden when they chose to believe Satan rather than God.

Of course it is a matter of being “free” from something. The very phrase “free will” posits the human will is “free” from something.

The only thing Adam and Eve passed on to all humanity is a sin nature that has enslaved our human will. The will is not “free”.

I can accept Adam and Eve’s will was free from a sin nature, but ours is not.

No one choses God unless He intervenes in their lives.

You are saying the exact same thing in post#28. I don’t believe are views are very different at all.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Of course it is a matter of being “free” from something. The very phrase “free will” posits the human will is “free” from something.

The only thing Adam and Eve passed on to all humanity is a sin nature that has enslaved our human will. The will is not “free”.

I can accept Adam and Eve’s will was free from a sin nature, but ours is not.

No one choses God unless He intervenes in their lives.

You are saying the exact same thing in post#28. I don’t believe are views are very different at all.

Peace to you

It's self explanatory, the ability to freely choose ones way in life.

 

[Charlie24]

It's self explanatory, the ability to freely choose ones way in life.

In other words, God didn't create robots that He programs to do this or that.

 

[Van]

This reminds me of the rhetoric from the reformers. Thank God for Calvin, Luther, etc. they got us out of that Catholic heresy, but they needed some reforming of their own. There were some of the reformers who got it right, the less known, behind the scenes. They recognized free will, But Calvin and others like him took the front stage.

Which ones recognized limited spiritual ability, the lost being able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food?

Which ones recognized Paul speaking to men of flesh using spiritual milk indicated natural people can hear and understand the gospel?

 

[Charlie24]

Which ones recognized limited spiritual ability, the lost being able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food?

Which ones recognized Paul speaking to men of flesh using spiritual milk indicated natural people can hear and understand the gospel?

Paul only presented the Gospel, as only we can do.

It's the Holy Spirit that reaches in the heart of man through the hearing of the Gospel and shows man the reality of it.

 

[Charlie24]

Paul only presented the Gospel, as only we can do.

It's the Holy Spirit that reaches in the heart of man through the hearing of the Gospel and shows man the reality of it.

The milk of the Word and the strong meat comes after the fact of salvation.

Once one accepts Christ he has to learn, beginning with the milk of the Word.

Paul was expressing the fact that by now, (they had been believers long enough to graduate to strong meat) they should have been well beyong the milk of the Word.

 

[Van]

Paul only presented the Gospel, as only we can do.

It's the Holy Spirit that reaches in the heart of man through the hearing of the Gospel and shows man the reality of it.

If you are saying we can only present the gospel that we received from God's word, including Paul's inspired contribution, then I agree.

I fear your vague verbiage, "reaches in the heart of man" indicates some sort of supernatural transformative action, rather than simply revealing the spiritual milk of God's gospel message.

If, as you suggest, the lost cannot understand spiritual milk, why did Paul speak to "men of flesh" using spiritual milk?

 

[Charlie24]

If you are saying we can only present the gospel that we received from God's word, including Paul's inspired contribution, then I agree.

I fear your vague verbiage, "reaches in the heart of man" indicates some sort of supernatural transformative action, rather than simply revealing the spiritual milk of God's gospel message.

If, as you suggest, the lost cannot understand spiritual milk, why did Paul speak to "men of flesh" using spiritual milk?

Pay attention, Van. If you can't grasp the free will in these verses and how the Holy Spirit works to enlighten man of the Gospel, then I'll be happy to explain it in detail from these verse.

Rom. 10:14-17

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."