The Fight Against Free-Will Works Religion

[Tenchi]

More denial, more rewriting scripture to conform to false doctrine.

1) False doctrine: The lost have no ability to seek God. Biblical doctrine, Luke 13:24, many of the lost seek the narrow door but do not find it.

2) False doctrine: The lost cannot hear or understand God's inspirited word. Biblical doctrine, Galatians 3:24, God's word leads the lost to Christ.

3) False doctrine: The lost suffer from total spiritual inability. Biblical doctrine, the lost can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Paul spoke to "men of flesh" (non-indwelt people) using spiritual milk.

Conclusion: The lost have the limited spiritual ability to hear and learn from God's word, the gospel of Christ.

What's your purpose in posting, Van? Have you ever spiritually edified your Christian brethren, or been edified yourself in these exchanges you have on BB? Do you believe your posts are persuasive? I guess you must, if you continue to post. But there are at least three "witnesses" now - Charlie24, myself and Silverhair - to the confusing and unbiblical character of your posts. What will it take for you to hear them, to actually seriously consider their criticisms? Or are you posting mostly because you're bored and find it stimulating to "cross swords" with others on these threads?

Maybe instead of positing your perspective in the antagonistic, polemical way you have in the quotation above, you could simply state what you believe, offer supporting Scripture and respond to whatever observations from others arise. Going at your detractors in the way you do, framing your views in the form of rebuttals of their "false doctrine," seems to me to produce more heat than light. Do you want a discussion? Or are you just looking for a fight? Mostly, from the general character of your posts, it seems the latter is your goal.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) False doctrine: The lost have no ability to seek God. Biblical doctrine, Luke 13:24, many of the lost seek the narrow door but do not find it.

This has been previously explained to you, but as usual you blithely ignore sound doctrine and carry on. Lost people can be very religious and will seek all sorts of stuff, but they will not find Christ in a saving way unless God opens their hearts to do so.

2) False doctrine: The lost cannot hear or understand God's inspirited word. Biblical doctrine, Galatians 3:24, God's word leads the lost to Christ.

Of course, God's word is the only thing that can lead the lost to Christ, but again, God must open their hearts to receive it. Gal. 3:24. 'The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be saved by faith.' Exactly so, but to the unsaved, the O.T. law is foolishness (1 Cor. 2:14) unless God first does a work on the heart. 'So then, those that are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8).

3) False doctrine: The lost suffer from total spiritual inability. Biblical doctrine, the lost can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Paul spoke to "men of flesh" (non-indwelt people) using spiritual milk.

Conclusion: The lost have the limited spiritual ability to hear and learn from God's word, the gospel of Christ.

Again, this has been previously explained to you. Paul cannot be referring to the Corinthian Christians as unsaved, because of the way he speaks of them in 1 Cor. 1:4ff. 'I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus.....' In 1 Cor. 3, 1-4, he is telling them that their divisive behaviour is worldly or carnal. Which of us have not behaved in a worldly manner at some time in our Christian walk? There were a lot of problems in the Corinthian church (hence the two letters), but in order to say that none of them were saved, you would have to cut 1:4-9 out of your Bible.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

All these verses clearly confirm that man, even an unregenerate man, can exercise a free-will in a manner pleasing to God.

You believe that I, when I was spiritually dead, could of my own free-will, choose to believe?

I disagree and praise God for His mercy, grace and loving kindness as expressed in these verses!!

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3 KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4 KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7 KJV) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9 KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Silverhair]

You believe that I, when I was spiritually dead, could of my own free-will, choose to believe?

I disagree and praise God for His mercy, grace and loving kindness as expressed in these verses!!

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3 KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4 KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7 KJV) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9 KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have no problem with those verses. God has provide the means by which we can know Him. Creation, conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, the gospel message. God holds man responsible for not choosing to believe so obviously He thinks man can choose to believe that is unless you think God is just being disingenuous.

We are chosen in Christ through faith just as we see in Eph 1:13 and again in Eph 2:8.
Wesley in these and other verses the people either choose to believe or they are forced to believe. Which view do you see in scripture?

Here are a few more verses to think about:
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Act 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I praise God for His mercy, grace and loving kindness as expressed in these verses. He saved a sinner like me when I humbled myself and turned to Him in faith.

As we see in James
Jas 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Jas 4:9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

 

[Van]

Here we go again, Van! Well, not exactly, because I'm not participating.

Your response is non responsive. I cited and presented my understanding of three verses. You had nothing to say about that, but implied my behavior was lacking. Same ol, same ol....

 

[Van]

What's your purpose in posting, Van? Have you ever spiritually edified your Christian brethren, or been edified yourself in these exchanges you have on BB? Do you believe your posts are persuasive? I guess you must, if you continue to post. But there are at least three "witnesses" now - Charlie24, myself and Silverhair - to the confusing and unbiblical character of your posts. What will it take for you to hear them, to actually seriously consider their criticisms? Or are you posting mostly because you're bored and find it stimulating to "cross swords" with others on these threads?

Maybe instead of positing your perspective in the antagonistic, polemical way you have in the quotation above, you could simply state what you believe, offer supporting Scripture and respond to whatever observations from others arise. Going at your detractors in the way you do, framing your views in the form of rebuttals of their "false doctrine," seems to me to produce more heat than light. Do you want a discussion? Or are you just looking for a fight? Mostly, from the general character of your posts, it seems the latter is your goal.

More against the person posting. Good Grief, everyone knows you are running from truth by addressing my imagined character flaws, while ignoring the topic.

Why are my posts confusing? If you have bought into some doctrine as biblically true, and then I assert the doctrine is unbiblical, that would be confusing, but not necessarily untrue.

Do I address others or doctrine? Doctrine! So you are charging me with your behavior.

1) False doctrine: The lost have no ability to seek God. Biblical doctrine, Luke 13:24, many of the lost seek the narrow door but do not find it.
2) False doctrine: The lost cannot hear or understand God's inspirited word. Biblical doctrine, Galatians 3:24, God's word leads the lost to Christ.
3) False doctrine: The lost suffer from total spiritual inability. Biblical doctrine, the lost can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Paul spoke to "men of flesh" (non-indwelt people) using spiritual milk.
Conclusion: The lost have the limited spiritual ability to hear and learn from God's word, the gospel of Christ.

 

[Van]

Van said:
1) False doctrine: The lost have no ability to seek God. Biblical doctrine, Luke 13:24, many of the lost seek the narrow door but do not find it.
Martin said:
This has been previously explained to you, but as usual you blithely ignore sound doctrine and carry on. Lost people can be very religious and will seek all sorts of stuff, but they will not find Christ in a saving way unless God opens their hearts to do so.
Van responds:
Your explanation is to redefine seeking to mean finding. Hogwash. A person's opening of their heart simply refers to hearing something explained in an understandable way, and does not refer to some imaginary supernatural enablement.

Van said:
2) False doctrine: The lost cannot hear or understand God's inspirited word. Biblical doctrine, Galatians 3:24, God's word leads the lost to Christ.
Martin said:
Of course, God's word is the only thing that can lead the lost to Christ, but again, God must open their hearts to receive it. Gal. 3:24. 'The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be saved by faith.' Exactly so, but to the unsaved, the O.T. law is foolishness (1 Cor. 2:14) unless God first does a work on the heart. 'So then, those that are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8).
Van responds:
God's word says the gospel is the power of God for salvation, it does not say provided God first supernaturally enables the person to understand via Irresistible Grace. That claim is Hogwash. The Law leads people to Christ, so the claim God's word could not because it is foolishness is biblical nullification hogwash. The bible is not a smogasborg where you take verses out of context and ignore the rest. Yes, those with their mind set on fleshly desires cannot please God, but the lost can set their minds on spiritual milk and be led to Christ.

Van said:
3) False doctrine: The lost suffer from total spiritual inability. Biblical doctrine, the lost can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Paul spoke to "men of flesh" (non-indwelt people) using spiritual milk.
Conclusion: The lost have the limited spiritual ability to hear and learn from God's word, the gospel of Christ.
Martin said:
Again, this has been previously explained to you. Paul cannot be referring to the Corinthian Christians as unsaved, because of the way he speaks of them in 1 Cor. 1:4ff. 'I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus.....' In 1 Cor. 3, 1-4, he is telling them that their divisive behaviour is worldly or carnal. Which of us have not behaved in a worldly manner at some time in our Christian walk? There were a lot of problems in the Corinthian church (hence the two letters), but in order to say that none of them were saved, you would have to cut 1:4-9 out of your Bible.
Van responds:
No one said Paul was speaking to the new Christians as unsaved. Paul was speaking to new Christians as new Christians in the same way he spoke to "men of flesh" using spiritual milk. 1 Cor.1:4 is non-germane. We are not talking about the grace we receive "after" we have been placed into Christ!! Next, the subject is changed, rather than addressing Paul speaking as to men of flesh, the poster addresses Paul speaking about the behavior of the new Christians. No one said "none were saved" so now the poster is simply misrepresenting my view.

Bottom line, nothing was said to counter this truth, the Lost have the limited spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.