The first sin, how is it possible?

[Allan]

It is clear from the passage that Eve knew the command. She quoted (misquoted actually) the command to Satan. Satan quoted the command accurately, while denying the truth of it and slandering God with His lies. Eve was decieved by the promise she could be like God, "knowing good and evil".

I with the above, though I think she didn't misquote it but over emphasized the command given. But that really is neither here nor there but semantics.

I believe that inherent in the deception that she could "be like God" is that she could use her own will to choose between good and evil...always choosing the good...just like God.

Therefore, the very first deception of Satan deals with the concept of "free will" in the choices of good and evil.

It was a lie then, and it is a lie now.

This part however devates from the majority of the Reformed works and understanding. Most all of the theologians regarding Reformed understanding disagree with you because they hold that Adam and Eve were the only ones who had a free will to choose good or evil.

Their sin was in disobedience nor thinking they had free will. Thus their judgment for their disobedience establishes they were in fact able to choose freely between obedience and disobedience and thus to disobey was to know the difference between good and evil.

Thus the first deception was that they could disobey God and get away with it and not to think they might have the freedom to choose.

 

[Allan]

Allan- I think I agree, if you dont mind can you also explain what God meant by "Very Good"? This may be where I got thrown off

It simply means that God was completely satisified with what He has created and the purpose it was created for.

It is not speaking to spiritual righteousness but simply that all is completed according to His purpose and plan.
Therefore would it not be very good to Him at it's completion.?

 

[Allan]

I have to disagree. Adam chose to disobey God. Not only did he disobey God, but he did not take headship over Eve as he should have. From the text, it appears he was with Even when she was tempted, yet he did nothing.

One point of clarification. Just because he was near enough for her to give him the fruit does not necessitate that he 'right there' beside her during this. It does indicate that he was at least near by but not necessarily in know of what was going on. We must be careful speak from silence (and I include myself here). Because when we do we make many assumptions and bring things into the situation that most likely were not even there.

We 'can' conclude that Eve did not honor his headship because she did not speak with him concerning something that had become questionable. He did not honor God because he willingly disobeyed. Why he did this we do not know - we only that we know he did.

 

[Marcia]

It is clear from the passage that Eve knew the command. peace to youraying:

I didn't say she didn't know the command. I said she had not received it directly from God as Adam did. I was anwering another poster's question and this was part of my point in my reply to him.

I think the serpent went after Eve rather than Adam (the poster's question) because Adam had received the command directly and Eve had not, thus making her appear to be a better target.

 

[Marcia]

One point of clarification. Just because he was near enough for her to give him the fruit does not necessitate that he 'right there' beside her during this. It does indicate that he was at least near by but not necessarily in know of what was going on. We must be careful speak from silence (and I include myself here). Because when we do we make many assumptions and bring things into the situation that most likely were not even there.

We 'can' conclude that Eve did not honor his headship because she did not speak with him concerning something that had become questionable. He did not honor God because he willingly disobeyed. Why he did this we do not know - we only that we know he did.

I agree, Allan, and I mentioned in my post that you respond to here that some do not believe Adam was actually present when the serpent tempted Eve.

So I don't claim that we can know he was with her, but I think there is evidence in the text that he might have been present during that temptation. If not, then Eve would have had to tell him where the fruit came from.

Either way, he knew better and yet chose to disobey God.

 

[Allan]

I [agree] with the above, though I think she didn't misquote it but over emphasized the command given. But that really is neither here nor there but semantics.

This part however devates from the majority of the Reformed works and understanding [not to mention all those non-reformed works]. Most all of the theologians regarding Reformed understanding however disagree with you because they do hold that Adam and Eve were the only ones who had a free will to choose [to obey or not and so able to choose to do] good or evil.

Their sin was [their] disobedience [and] not [that they thought they had] free will. Thus their judgment [was] for their disobedience [which] establishes they were in fact able to choose freely between obedience and disobedience and [so to] disobey [God] was [at that point] to know the difference between good and evil.

Therefore the first deception was that they could disobey God and get away with it, not [that they thought they] have free will.

I needed to retype some of the above since I was trying to type one handed and had my 5 month old in my lap trying keep her from crying. So what is in the above is very hard to understand even for me - and I wrote :laugh:

So the above has some corrections to it and those are found in the brackets.

 

[Allan]

I agree, Allan, and I mentioned in my post that you respond to here that some do not believe Adam was actually present when the serpent tempted Eve.

So I don't claim that we can know he was with her, but I think there is evidence in the text that he might have been present during that temptation. If not, then Eve would have had to tell him where the fruit came from.

Either way, he knew better and yet chose to disobey God.

I find nothing in the above I can't disagree with :thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

Satan didn't "lie" to Eve, he told her the "TRUTH".

Scripture tells us that Eve was decieved. Did Satan deceive Eve by telling the truth? Is it possible to deceive someone with the truth?

Satan told Eve that she wouldn't die. Did Satan lie to Eve? Yes he did.

Satan told Eve that the reason God didn't want them to eat of the tree was that God knew that they would be "like God" when they ate of the tree. Did Satan lie to Eve? Yes he did, and he slandered God while he did it.

Inherent in the deception is that Eve could use her own will to decide between good and evil, and be "like God" when she did so.

That was a lie from Satan as well.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

This part however devates from the majority of the Reformed works and understanding. Most all of the theologians regarding Reformed understanding disagree with you because they hold that Adam and Eve were the only ones who had a free will to choose good or evil.

I don't recall saying that Adam and Eve didn't have "free will" and are the only ones that did.

What I said was that the lie from Satan was that they could use that will after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and be like God when they did so, always choosing the good over the evil.

The essence of the "free-will" argument, imho, is that man doesn't need God to choose the ultimate good (salvation in Christ). In that sense, it is the exact same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. That is, you don't need God to choose good over evil, just use your own will.

Their sin was in disobedience nor thinking they had free will. Thus their judgment for their disobedience establishes they were in fact able to choose freely between obedience and disobedience and thus to disobey was to know the difference between good and evil.

First, Eve looked upon the fruit and believed that it would make her "wise". That demonstrates she believed the lie that she could use her own will to discern matters of good and evil.

Her disobedience was brought about by the deception of Satan, and that deception concerned the ability to use her own will in choosing between good and evil.

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

I find nothing in the above I can't disagree with :thumbs:

You mean there is nothing there you can find that you can disagree with, right? :tongue3:

 

[Allan]

You mean there is nothing there you can find that you can disagree with, right? :tongue3:

Yes, that line or better a variation of that line is one a friend here on the BB used to use (Reformedbeliever). He got it from one of his professors. The first time he used it on me had me stumped on the reply post for about 5 minutes trying to figure out if he was agreeing or disagreeing with me. :laugh:

 

[Allan]

I don't recall saying that Adam and Eve didn't have "free will" and are the only ones that did.

What I said was that the lie from Satan was that they could use that will after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and be like God when they did so, always choosing the good over the evil.

The essence of the "free-will" argument, imho, is that man doesn't need God to choose the ultimate good (salvation in Christ). In that sense, it is the exact same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. That is, you don't need God to choose good over evil, just use your own will.First, Eve looked upon the fruit and believed that it would make her "wise". That demonstrates she believed the lie that she could use her own will to discern matters of good and evil.

I understand what you are trying to say now.
One thing though, you are very wrong concerning the 'free will argument'.
What you are discribing is Pelegianism at it's finest and the overwhelming vast majority of non Calvinistic believers deny it completely. You are speaking of libertarian free will and that unfortunately is a label that Cals use as a blanket reference. The understanding that is perpetuated in that label is much like the term 'Calvinist' in that it is a negitive label that almost never accurately describes the actual view of those to whom it is given.

When you hear the term free-will think more along the lines of limited will because that is what is actually being conveyed. That God gives us choices and we can only make those choices at the time God gives them. Not before and not after. However it is in that time where God allows choice they are free to choose because of God's enabling. Just trying to clarify this misunderstanding.

Her disobedience was brought about by the deception of Satan, and that deception concerned the ability to use her own will in choosing between good and evil.

Maybe you are saying the same thing I am about to say just differently than I would. Here is what I see.
I believe that the text bears out her decption came when chose to continue listening to the serpent who was asking her to question God. That their choices should not have been made without consulting/coming to God first. And that this choice to come to God with this issue was within their ability to do.

If that is what you are trying to say then I agree with you, no question :thumbs: .

 

[Me4Him]

Scripture tells us that Eve was decieved. Did Satan deceive Eve by telling the truth? Is it possible to deceive someone with the truth?

Yes, very possible, everyone would like to be "As God", but is doing so, God is demoted, or you're promoted to an equal level, God is no longer "Supreme".

Satan told Eve that the reason God didn't want them to eat of the tree was that God knew that they would be "like God" when they ate of the tree. Did Satan lie to Eve? Yes he did, and he slandered God while he did it.

No, that part was truth, their eyes were open to sin, knowing good/evil, Adam/Eve, ignoring God's instructions, didn't consider the consequences of their actions.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Inherent in the deception is that Eve could use her own will to decide between good and evil, and be "like God" when she did so.

That was a lie from Satan as well.

peace to youraying:

Adam's sin condemned all flesh, but Adam sin didn't condemn any other souls, for a soul to sin, it must transgress the law with full "Knowledge" of that law,

that is "knowing good/evil" or having reached the "Age of Accountability".

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Only the flesh is condemned from birth, "NO LAW", (knowledge/understanding of law) no sin is imputed,

Ro 4:15 for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

De 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God gave the law so we would "know good/evil".

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Of course, getting man to "confess" his actions transgress God's laws goes back to man's desire to be "AS GOD", and live by his own "laws" of "good/evil".

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Adam/Eve's choice brought "All men" into sin, Jesus died that "All men"..... "MIGHT BE" saved from sin.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And the "might be" hinges on "OUR KNOWLEDGE/CHOICE" of "good/evil" according to "God's law" (obey) or be "AS GODS" ourselves. (Disobey)

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


With the "knowledge of good/evil" came "man's accountability" for obedience/disobedience,

Adam/Eve's choice brought us to where we are today, a choice of Jesus can take us back to where Adam/Eve were before they sinned.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:

but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

This "Choice" still exist.

 

[canadyjd]

When you hear the term free-will think more along the lines of limited will because that is what is actually being conveyed. That God gives us choices and we can only make those choices at the time God gives them. Not before and not after. However it is in that time where God allows choice they are free to choose because of God's enabling.

I am trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that there are periods of time (limited in their duration) in which God grants to sinners "free-will" (meaning free from all outside influence), thus enabling them to freely accept or reject the offer of grace?

I believe that the text bears out her decption came when chose to continue listening to the serpent who was asking her to question God. That their choices should not have been made without consulting/coming to God first. And that this choice to come to God with this issue was within their ability to do.

I'll think about this. I'm sure exactly how it bears on the situation unless you're equating the choice to not consult God first to be a choice between good and evil.

Even if that were true, they couldn't have recognized it as a choice between good and evil because they had not yet ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by canadyjdScripture tells us that Eve was decieved. Did Satan deceive Eve by telling the truth? Is it possible to deceive someone with the truth?

Yes, very possible, everyone would like to be "As God", but is doing so, God is demoted, or you're promoted to an equal level, God is no longer "Supreme".

That makes no sense whatsoever. It is a lie that anyone will be "as God" in discerning good and evil. No created creature can be "as God" in knowing good and evil. They will always be limited (because they are creatures) in their knowledge of good and evil. Only God has that kind of wisdom and knowledge.

canadyjd said: Satan told Eve that the reason God didn't want them to eat of the tree was that God knew that they would be "like God" when they ate of the tree. Did Satan lie to Eve? Yes he did, and he slandered God while he did it.

(Me4Him responded)No, that part was truth, their eyes were open to sin, knowing good/evil, Adam/Eve, ignoring God's instructions, didn't consider the consequences of their actions.

You are not understanding. Satan lied about God's motives in forbidding them from eating of the tree. He lied about them not dying.

FTR, just because their "eyes were open" and they "knew good and evil", it did not make them "as God". That also is a lie from Satan. God knows good and evil from an unpolluted, pure and righteous point of view. That is something no creature will ever know.

Adam's sin condemned all flesh, but Adam sin didn't condemn any other souls, for a soul to sin, it must transgress the law with full "Knowledge" of that law...

That is silly. The O.T. sacrafices were for sins comitted in ignorance. Even though they were comitted in ignorance, they were sins, nevertherless.

Adam and Eve were said to have sinned, even though the law had not yet been given.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

That makes no sense whatsoever. It is a lie that anyone will be "as God" in discerning good and evil. No created creature can be "as God" in knowing good and evil.

Man is made in the Image of God, and that "image" includes "attribute of God", the ability to "Reason".

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

They will always be limited (because they are creatures) in their knowledge of good and evil. Only God has that kind of wisdom and knowledge.

This is the reason God gave man the law, and holds him accountable for his knowledge/transgression.

You are not understanding. Satan lied about God's motives in forbidding them from eating of the tree. He lied about them not dying.

I think you missed the point here, Satan told them they would be "AS GODS", eyes opened to both sides of the "coin", good/evil, but to "know sin" you have to committ sin,

the reason Jesus said if you were "blind" (eyes not open) you would have no sin, If God had not given them the "law", don't eat, and they ate, no sin would have been imputed to them,

No law, no sin, reason for the "age of accountability" doctrine.

FTR, just because their "eyes were open" and they "knew good and evil", it did not make them "as God".

"WE" have a "choice" to conform to which ever "image" we chose, Jesus's image/Satan image, based on our knowledge of the law and obedience/disobedience to the law, just as we're judged according to "Civil law".

That "choice" is one of man's attributes of being made in the image of God, the only "Species" on the planet with that ability and only one held accountable.

The O.T. sacrafices were for sins comitted in ignorance. Even though they were comitted in ignorance, they were sins, nevertherless.

How can you "confess" to a sin you don't "KNOW" you've committed???

It's only with the "knowledge" of that sin, can confession be made.

We don't know/confess to "every" sin we commit, but we "know/confess" we occupy a "body of sin", and only it's death will stop it from sinning.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The "Day of Atonement", a "Scapegoat" (Jesus) and a "Goat for the people" (body of sin) had to be sacrificed before "Atonement" was "complete".

The scapegoat sacrifice fulfilled the law of "death for sin" for the sins of the whole world that we "MIGHT BE" saved, providing we are willing to "Sacrifice" the "Body of sin".

Either sacrifice "ALONG", didn't make "Atonement", both had to be made.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Adam and Eve were said to have sinned, even though the law had not yet been given.

peace to youraying:

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How did Enoch know enough about God/Righteousness to be "Raptured",

and what about Noah, Abraham, countless others, all "before" the law was given to "Moses"??

And if they could have known enough to be counted as "righteous", why couldn't others as well???

Righteousness got off the ark with Noah, but was rejected when man decided to build his own "tower to heaven". (Nimrod=rebel)

People who lived prior to "Moses" knew more about God/Righteousness than we give them credit, and were judge/held accountable.

 

[canadyjd]

Man is made in the Image of God, and that "image" includes "attribute of God", the ability to "Reason"..........

I am just not able to comprehend what you are saying. Why you think Satan did not lie when Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning? Why do think Satan deceived Eve by telling her the truth? (that doesn't make sense)

peace to youraying:

 

[quickened1]

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)(NIV)

What is wrong with being like God ? Doesnt God want us to be like him? Is it not his will for all to be saved and to be conformed to the image of his Son ? God wants us to be like Christ. To "be like God" is one thing and "to want to be God" (like Satan desires) is another.

Here is the KJV 1611:


4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[canadyjd]

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)(NIV)

What is wrong with being like God ? Doesnt God want us to be like him? Is it not his will for all to be saved and to be conformed to the image of his Son ? God wants us to be like Christ. To "be like God" is one thing and "to want to be God" (like Satan desires) is another.

First, it is a lie that any created creature is capable of being "like God" in their knowledge of good and evil. They are finite in their understanding. God is perfect in His understanding.

If God had wanted Adam and Eve to know good and evil, and judge between them according to their human will, He would have told them to eat of the tree. So, apparently, God didn't want them to know good and evil.

God does want us to be like Christ, since He commands us to be llike Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

I am just not able to comprehend what you are saying. Why you think Satan did not lie when Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning? Why do think Satan deceived Eve by telling her the truth? (that doesn't make sense)

peace to youraying:

It's through the power of reasoning that we are able to create/build things,

If I do that, this will happen, but

If I do this, that will happen.

The power of reasoning lies in being able to "CHOSE" between two different courses.

Satan told them their eyes would be open, and they were, that wasn't a lie, he lied about the consequences of disobeying God's instructions not to eat, mainly you won't die in the day you sin.

Eve was given a choice to go from sinless to sin, we're given a choice to go from sin back to sinless through Jesus.

With the power to reason (as God) comes the responsibility and accountablilty for the choices we make.

( I'll be off line for a few days, so If I don't answer you'll know why, most likely Wed/Thur before I'll be back)