The Five Points of Free-Willism

Can you tell us when the Gospel became flesh, dwelt amongst men, was crucified, died, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven, please ?

 

Gospel = Good News = The Bible = God's Word = The Word (God the Son, Jesus Christ) so apart from The Gospel of God the Son, Jesus Christ and WILLFUL faith in Him, we are hopelessly lost in our Sin. IS that clear enough? The Living Word lived in His earthly body approx 4 B.C - A.D. 30, is that what you wanted to know?

 

Well, if "sinner" means "one who commits acts of sin" -- which is a reasonable definition for the term -- then clearly the infants who have yet to develop the capacity for such actions are not "sinners". Simply because someone believes that infants are not such "sinners" doesn't mean that they haven't been born into sin, estranged from God and under condemnation. They would be "innocent" only in the sense of "naive", and not in the sense of being "pure". Other than that ambiguity, the statement seems to be an accurate representation of that facet of free-willian belief.

 

Gospel might equal Good News, but it most certainly does not equal the Bible (which does equal God's Word) or The Word (which does not equal God's Word).

 

If an unregenerate man started an orphange for abused children, wouldn't that be a good work??

 

My point was man can do the appearance of good works, like the orphanage, but of course as for God's standards our works are as as filthy rags. I used these words because I heard a free-willer use these words that man is "totally depraved but not absolutedly depraved" that's why our society isn't in a state of violent anarchy.

Man is created in God's image so God's Law is written on the heart of men, no matter how depraved their actions are, men have a God consciousness - unlike the animals. Man "fell" in the Garden, he didn't die, that's why they call it the "Fall"

 

What free willer would say man is not totally fallen? That's ludicrous! Man is totally depraved in the sense, left to themselves EVERYONE would be reprobate. God doesn't leave man to themselves, however. Scripture tells us that EVERYONE will give an account for what was done in the body both GOOD and bad. Reprobate are included in everyone, no? They will give an account both GOOD and bad...

 

No.
Your statement is clear.
The gospel, you said, and man's faith, ensures his heavenly home.

The gospel is simply good news about Christ who came to save sinners, and did in fact save sinners.

It is good news of one's finished salvation.

Good news did not happen because you believed it.

Your salvation did not become a reality to you because you had faith in Christ.

You had faith in Christ precisely because you are a saved sinner.

Therefore, with or without the good news, you are a child of God, a saved sinner, and heavenbound. Translation: without the gospel, you are still a child of God.

Now, this is as far as I will go, because I do not want to derail npet's thread.

You can start a thread about this if you desire to refute.

 

Yes I realize that and my corrections to your post (which was good by the way) were from conversations I have had with ardent free-willers, which really is nothing more than humanism. Free-will (as defined by the free-willers) makes man autonomous or "neutral" to the Gospel. It is influenced by the Grace of God but not "coerced" to the point beyond man making the final - therefore sovereign - decision to make salvation "effectual".

"God votes for ya, devil votes agianst ya and YOU cast the deciding vote of your own free will" - 'bout sums it up.

 

Pinoy,

I agree with you, but God's eternal redemptive purpose was that the Gospel is the method used to make His free gift of salvation effectual.

 

IFB MOle you missed the mark. Man is not nuetral about God he is either for or against there is no in between. Also there is a diffeance between coerced and forced without choice. God seeks out man,and convicts him of sin,many times over and over again. God makes every effort short of outright forcing us to choose Him to win us over to His side.:godisgood:

 

First, I applaud your effort to see "free will" apart from Aminianism and semi-Pelagianism applause and putting the issues in plain terms.

Second, this really does present the issues for all to consider.

I might elaborate on this point by saying that man, after the fall, knew evil AND GOOD (including God) which he knew previously. And in the end, choosing salvation is just like any of a myriad of decisions man makes -- there's a set of facts, there's good and evil possibilities, there are distincitve outcomes (rewards or punishments) to be considered.

Born innocent but NOT saved. Infants are JUSTIFIED until accountability on account of 1) sinlessness and 2) lack of capacity for good or evil. Scripture? Rom 7:9.

All the JUST will be resurrected into Christ's earthly kingdom and have opportunity to receive Christ as Savior when they have knowledge.

God allows His created beings (men and angels) sovereignty in their own affairs -- but God retains sovereignty over the outcomes of their decisions. He will have mercy on whom He desires to have mercy regarding outcomes (which is really everyone since this is one of His means of drawing men to Christ). Scripture? "Choose YE this day whom you will serve."

God gives men enough INFORMATION to sovereignly CHOOSE His salvation would be better. He even uses nature, Rom 1:19-20.

I also would caution that Calvinists/Reformers seem to have a muddy definition of "grace." Right here what you say seems to infer that "enough grace" would be "enough Holy Spirit" or "enough salvation." At the point of not having received Christ, I don't think anyone receives "grace." Rather, they are given "mercy."

"Faith, hope, love -- but the greatest of these is love." Love is the fruit of faith that God is looking for. Love is being a blessing to the Object/object of your love (God, wife, children). Love is wanting the best for that Person/person today and forever. As this demonstrates, love is knowable to even the lost and is responsive "in kind" to the person loved.

Yes, there is no greater desire on God's part than that we love Him of our own will. "Love covereth a multitude of sins" --- isn't that the truth!!

skypair

 

You just answered your own charge, npeterely. Spiritually alive means that we still have mind, emotions, and will wherein either 1) "there is no law" or 2) the law has been replaced by faith in Christ.

Do you see that between the time when there was no known law until "sin sprang to life" that there was a period when one was innocent in God's eyes of any sin guilt?

skypair

 

Here's where the point is a little out of touch with reality/scripture IMO --- we enter heaven with the same mind, emotions, and will that we left earth with. Infants are not going to suddenly experience all knowledge once they go there either. They will come back to earth with all those who didn't or couldn't know Jesus (insane and OT saints included) and they will have a choice to make THEN. It's the same choice we have to make NOW -- Jesus saves or self saves.

skypair

 

Your point really militates, not for innocence, but for election by some other means than Christ, pinoy.

Further, in equating "elect" with "saved," you assume that infants will have the privilege of being raptured when Christ "comes in the air" for us. That too would not be true. Infants are counted among the 'just" -- like OT saints who couldn't know Jesus Christ as Savior.

skypair