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The Flag
- Thread starter Servent
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Although I have family in South Carolina and almost moved there, myself, I'm in Alabama. The people of South Carolina are going to have to decide for themselves whether or not they're going to give in to the political correctness Obamunists.
Unfortunately, Alabama did give in, for which I am deeply embarrassed. If it were up to me, I wouldn't take it down, but would put up a hundred more.
Take it down. Donate it to a museum.
The Constitution of the U.S. has a certain bias toward the white landed gentry. The Confederate Constitution has some specific verbiage which is quite specific regarding slaves not being citizens, Sect. 9.1-9.2.
Sarcasm: You gotta have slaves to work the crops, man. White men cannot deal with the heat--an interesting rationale. George W. and Thomas J. had African slaves.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
The Constitution of the U.S. has a certain bias toward the white landed gentry. The Confederate Constitution has some specific verbiage which is quite specific regarding slaves not being citizens, Sect. 9.1-9.2.
Sarcasm: You gotta have slaves to work the crops, man. White men cannot deal with the heat--an interesting rationale. George W. and Thomas J. had African slaves.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
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Take it down.
Take it down. It was never officially the flag of the Confederacy. It became popular only after the KKK began using it.
It does belong in a museum as it is a part of a sad chapter in our history.
It does belong in a museum as it is a part of a sad chapter in our history.
The display of the Confederate flag remains a highly controversial and emotional topic, generally because of disagreement over the nature of its symbolism.
Opponents of the Confederate flag (especially African Americans) see it as an overt symbol of racism, both for the history of racial slavery in the United States, and the establishment of Jim Crow laws by Southern states following the end of Reconstruction in late 1870s, enforcing racial segregation within state borders for nearly a century until the Civil Rights Movement. Some hate groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.[17] The flag is also sometimes used by separatist organizations such as the Aryan Nations. It is important to note, however, that the official flag of the Ku Klux Klan, as stated by this organization itself, is the flag of the United States of America, not the CSA battle flag. The Aryan Nation also uses the U.S. flag as well as the Christian flag displayed in some Protestant churches.
Supporters of the flag view it as a symbol of heritage and the freedom of the distinct cultural tradition of the South from the oppression of Northern government. Also, in light of some schools and universities banning it as a racist symbol in their "speech codes", it could also be seen as a symbol of freedom of speech.[18]
White southerners often see the flag as merely a symbol of southern culture without any political or racial connotation. An example of this would be the Bocephus Rebel Flag often sold at concerts performed by country music star Hank Williams, Jr or Kevin Fowler, heavy metal band Pantera, and southern rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd. For some, the flag represents only a past era of southern sovereignty.[19] Some historical societies such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy also use the flag as part of their symbols. Also some rockabilly fans hold the Confederate flag as their emblem.[20]
As a result of these varying perceptions, there have been a number of political controversies surrounding the use of the Confederate flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events, at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and native Southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the South's resistance to Northern political dominance; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s, when fighting against desegregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance.
Symbols of the Confederacy remain a contentious issue across the United States and have been debated vigorously in many Southern state legislatures over their civic placement since the 1990s.
http://www.civilwar.com/resources/313-flags/150182-confederate-flag-history.html
Opponents of the Confederate flag (especially African Americans) see it as an overt symbol of racism, both for the history of racial slavery in the United States, and the establishment of Jim Crow laws by Southern states following the end of Reconstruction in late 1870s, enforcing racial segregation within state borders for nearly a century until the Civil Rights Movement. Some hate groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.[17] The flag is also sometimes used by separatist organizations such as the Aryan Nations. It is important to note, however, that the official flag of the Ku Klux Klan, as stated by this organization itself, is the flag of the United States of America, not the CSA battle flag. The Aryan Nation also uses the U.S. flag as well as the Christian flag displayed in some Protestant churches.
Supporters of the flag view it as a symbol of heritage and the freedom of the distinct cultural tradition of the South from the oppression of Northern government. Also, in light of some schools and universities banning it as a racist symbol in their "speech codes", it could also be seen as a symbol of freedom of speech.[18]
White southerners often see the flag as merely a symbol of southern culture without any political or racial connotation. An example of this would be the Bocephus Rebel Flag often sold at concerts performed by country music star Hank Williams, Jr or Kevin Fowler, heavy metal band Pantera, and southern rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd. For some, the flag represents only a past era of southern sovereignty.[19] Some historical societies such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy also use the flag as part of their symbols. Also some rockabilly fans hold the Confederate flag as their emblem.[20]
As a result of these varying perceptions, there have been a number of political controversies surrounding the use of the Confederate flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events, at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and native Southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the South's resistance to Northern political dominance; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s, when fighting against desegregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance.
Symbols of the Confederacy remain a contentious issue across the United States and have been debated vigorously in many Southern state legislatures over their civic placement since the 1990s.
http://www.civilwar.com/resources/313-flags/150182-confederate-flag-history.html
OTOH, the Constitution of the Confederate States of America did have what some consider to be some "desirable" things when it came to the head of the Executive Branch:
1) The POTCSA was limited to one six-year term.
2) The POTCSA could not run for POTCSA once he completed his one six-year term of office.
Another (but unrelated to the Constitution of the CSA) interesting tidbit was the "Official" cause of the War Between the States:
POTUS Franklin Pierce (the 14th POTUS, 1853-57) a Democrat from NH, appointed his Secretary of War, a future US Senator.
This Sec'y of War (as any cabinet member did/does) made some recommendation(s) concerning his "area of authority." As Sec'y of War, his area of authority had to do with all matters military.
One such recommendation was to remove the control of all "coastal forts" (which would have included at that time even CA, OR & WA) to each state's "militia."
This was never implemented, BUT, had it been, Ft. Sumter in Charleston SC harbor would have been under control of the SC militia.
Hence, there would not have been a "bombardment of the US Federal Military Installation" Fort Sumter in 1861!
Who was POTUS Pierce's Secretary of War?
Yep, it was future US Senator from MS, Jefferson Davis!
That is fine as long as you are consistant and would defend the rights of others, such as neo-Nazis to display the swastika, black power groups to display the black power flag, Muslims to display the crescent flag, as well as defend their freedom of speech to display passages from what they consider scripture.
Are you ready to do that?
Zaac
Well-Known Member
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Leave It Up. This is Southern history. This is a symbol of freedom of speech. If it is taken down where will it all end. Next will be the statues of the Officer's of the Civil war. Next history will be re-wrote not even mentioning the Civil war. I talked to a man a few day's ago that sold the Confederate flags at a flea market and he told me people were buying them as fast as he could get another shipment in. Bama and his cronies have done more to create a division among races than any other president.
OK, so we cave to the TRUE racists and remove the flag!
Think that will be the end of it; and how long before a Jackson/Sharpton/ type decides that there is some other symbol they can "condemn" as "racists" and start a new drive to eliminate.
If anything, the response in Charleston should show that the Stars & Bars is nowhere racial, as that symbol is all over that area, but there has been no hesitation for the "redneck, flag waving, guns & bible thumper crowd" to reach out to the victims of the madman.
Yield on this point and there will be another before long, and then another, and then ----!
The liberals are determined to eliminate any and all history (except the "PC" version) of the south, to hide the Feds aggression in invading the south. (JMHO of course)
Oh, and as a side note, as noted already, the slaves were NOT captured under this flag, NOR transported under this flag, so why does the resentment wait until another flag that had nothing to do with slavery get to be the "bad guy"?? I have one theory -- it's because of herd mentality, nothing more nothing less. That is why removal will solve no problem, and just lead to another "flag" fiasco of some type.
Think that will be the end of it; and how long before a Jackson/Sharpton/ type decides that there is some other symbol they can "condemn" as "racists" and start a new drive to eliminate.
If anything, the response in Charleston should show that the Stars & Bars is nowhere racial, as that symbol is all over that area, but there has been no hesitation for the "redneck, flag waving, guns & bible thumper crowd" to reach out to the victims of the madman.
Yield on this point and there will be another before long, and then another, and then ----!
The liberals are determined to eliminate any and all history (except the "PC" version) of the south, to hide the Feds aggression in invading the south. (JMHO of course)
Oh, and as a side note, as noted already, the slaves were NOT captured under this flag, NOR transported under this flag, so why does the resentment wait until another flag that had nothing to do with slavery get to be the "bad guy"?? I have one theory -- it's because of herd mentality, nothing more nothing less. That is why removal will solve no problem, and just lead to another "flag" fiasco of some type.
Agreed
agreed, but as Rolf said- should be up to the citizens of SC
Yes, they have the right.
Some years ago, a VA up in Midwest took down State/Commowealth Flags with a Confederate symbol as it offended at least one Black man. ( cant seem to find a link at the moment - ...)
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Salty the Op ask for a opinion, I gave mine. The powers in SC have already gave in to the minority so it will be taken down.
If I were in SC I would want it taken down. I have changed on this after realizing the offensive nature of the flag to our black brothers and sisters.
Go back and watch old civil rights marches and watch how black Americans were treated by the white onlookers. Racial slurs, spitting on them, physical abuse and seemingly always that flag waved in their face. That generation equated that flag with those actions, and rightly so.
So for many if not most whites it's a symbol of southern heritage and culture, but i would think to most blacks (especially older) it is a symbol of incredible pain and suffering and hate. So for the sake of my fellow black Americans I would retire it to the museums.
Go back and watch old civil rights marches and watch how black Americans were treated by the white onlookers. Racial slurs, spitting on them, physical abuse and seemingly always that flag waved in their face. That generation equated that flag with those actions, and rightly so.
So for many if not most whites it's a symbol of southern heritage and culture, but i would think to most blacks (especially older) it is a symbol of incredible pain and suffering and hate. So for the sake of my fellow black Americans I would retire it to the museums.
But what was the reason for those actions - was it because of the way the North (Republicans) treated the defeated South?
Several theories on why Abe was killed.
So the treatment of black Americans was justified? I'm not seeing the connection.
Never said that - never implied.
But treatment of the South was wrong as well.
AKA two wrongs dont make a right.
Think about how the Big 3 Allies treated the Germans after WWII. Yes, we occupied them for a few years, but our mission was to help them rebuild with their leaders in charge.
Lincoln had a very good plan -
The question was about the flag. Not sure what all this history has to do with how a large segment of our society views the Rebel flag and the negative emotions it brings.
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