The flimsy foundation of ME

EXACTLY! That is the WHOLE POINT! Yet half of Christendom says that a person is not saved if they don't live up to the expectations that "they" place on individuals.

You can't tell whether someone is saved or not by their actions. That is the WHOLE POINT.

WORKS NEVER enter the picture of whether or not someone is saved or not, whether it's 10 seconds after salvation, 10 minutes after salvation or 10 years after salvation. NO WORKS simply means NO WORKS EVER.

 

J Jump, such a long post to just pass judgement on my doubt.

You see, I said I doubt that he is saved. I do not know nor can I know if John is actually saved. But I do know from my own life and my own studies that true salvation requires true belief.

So the real problem becomes, how can he believe before salvation?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is why most who say they believe don't! A man hears a preacher say "God raised Jesus from the grave" and he thinks, "well, the preacher said so, it must be true" and he says the sinners prayer and goes happly on his way thinking he is saved. There is no heart felt belief there. And then he goes to college and lives for the devil. Why? because he wasn't saved in the first place. That is church tradition, which I have always rejected.

So the answer to how he can believe is,

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

God calls the man, the man believes because God called him and he has true salvation.

I suppose you know where I am going from here.

God Bless

 

npetreley, I have it under control.

God's word speaks for itself!

Blessings

 

I just caught this! You bad!!!!!!

I thought we were friends. :tear:

:laugh:

 

There are very clear warnings that Christians who commit certain things and fail to repent are in danger of being excluded from the Kingdom. ("Hell/outer darkness" issue aside)

The following verses are addressed directly to believers and are very plain.

Note: I will insert commentary in BLUE.


1 Corinthians 6:6-10
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
[Clearly not addressed to anyone but a believer.]
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:[who?] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[The they is simply "they". The verse is directed to Christians.]

Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[WHY?]
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
[Because if you partake with them you will get a portion with them!]


Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart,
[Same hypothetical servant. Still saved. Just behaving differently]
My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

Because your doubt is not based in Scripture. Npetreley is obviously one of the most outspoken critics of this doctrine, but agress with me that you can not tell whether or not a person is saved based on their works. It simply can't be done. You are merely speculating at best as to that person's spiritually condition and you are unwilling to take into consideration of more years of faithful living, but instead dwell on four years of their most recent living to pass your own judgment on them.

My whole point is we should be trying to "tell" whether or not someone is saved or not.

What we should be doing is if we see someone we know that is struggling we sin we shouldn't say well pffff they're just unsaved and they really didn't believe in the first place shame on those fakers those professors but not possessors.

What we should be doing is finding out what people believe. If they say they believe in Jesus Christ as the Substitute then they should be treated as saved individuals regardless of what their works say.

And my point is there are MANY folks that say they believe, but live wretched lives. So instead of writing them off as unsaved we need to encourage them with Scripture to let them know there are consquences for their actions. There are consequences now and there are going to be consequences at the JSOC.

 

Even more satanic is to try to get them to "really really truly believe" so they can know that they "know that they know that they know" that they are "truly really really truly" saved because they have enough good works to be in npetreley and Lazarus' club.

lacy

 

Lacy, I don't know if you are Reformed or not, but here's my 2cents worth:

1. Not only Calvinists, but those who believe in eternal security, teach that once saved you can live however you want to. That is dangerously unbiblical.

2. Scripture teaches eternal security, "those whom God justified he glorified" (Rom 8:30).

3. But believers are called upon to work out their salvation (Phil 2:12, 13). We have to teach and preach what is in the text.

4. Peter says that we must make our His calling and choosing of us certain (2 Pet.1:10).

5. In another place, we are told that we are kept by God through Christ, but then in the same writing, we are to keep ourselves in the love of God (Jd 1, 21, 24).

6. We must learn to accept and live with these tensions in Scripture. At least, I do.

 

Why do you say such things? That is ridiculous. You are the ones that believe you will be saved by your works.

 

It may be dangerous, but it is silly to say that we are programed robots, incapable of these sins, especially when the NT writers spend so much time warning us (the saved) not to participate in the sins.

Amen.

Amen again.

Amen again, but what does it mean for us practically?

Amen Amen.

Ok? so what about the warnings that say if we do certain things we miss the kingdom?

 

Rather continue a long and fruitless debate, I refer you here J Jump and company.

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm

 

A half-truth is considered a lie in some circles.

I believe we gain entrance into the Kingdom by a combination of our fruit, our works (in Christ), our attitude, our resisting the flesh, our watchfulness, and especially, the amount of mercy that we show.

I believe we are saved by believing one time on the mighty finished work of Christ that he accomplished for our behalf, on the cross of Calvary.

We are not "the ones" who believe you can look at a man's work and judge whether he is saved. I won't even look at another man's walk and say dogmatically whether he will enter the Kingdom, much less whether he is saved in all eternity. I don't know.

So now you know what I believe. Let's make a deal. You don't lie about what I believe and I won't lie about what you believe. That sound fair?

Love, Lacy

 

Is this the website where I go to learn how to ignore all the "Armenian scriptures?" Do you think we are ignorant of the Armenian/Calvanist questions? Both sides call us heretics. I've been down that road already. It's hard to be either (Armenian/Calvanist) and to look at myself honestly in the mirror, because the other side has too many scriptural arguments.

It reminds me of the blind guys feeling different parts of the elephant.

 

Not by works of righteousness we have done........

It's as clear as day.

 

Well Lazarus since you are tardy to our discussion I'm going to explain this again to catch you up to speed.

Anything that is done by us that will stand the test of fire (gold, silver, precious stones) will not have been done directly by us, but in us and through our members as a result of us dying to ourselves.

However these works wrought in us by the Holy Spirit are indeed credited to our account as if we did them ourselves.

So when we speak of faith that produces works we are not talking about our works in and of ourselves, but the works that are wrought in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

So you are correc that is is not by "our" works of righteousness, but it is by our righteous acts that are done on our behalf and credited to our account.

Paul said "I" have finished the race and "I" have fought the good fight. Now do you really think Paul thought "he" had done those things or that they had been done in and through him?

You can't do away with "our" good works because there are too many Scriptures that talk about them and especially in relation to entering the kingdom, but they MUST be kept in proper perspective.

That's why so many people accuse us of believing in our "own" good works to save us. They either one are lying or two they really don't understand what we are talking about.

Hopefully that will clear that up a bit for you.

 

1. I know of no well-bred Calvinist who teaches what you outlined.

2. Christians ought to bear fruit and bring glory to God (John 15:7, 8).

3. If nothing else, experience teaches us that we must honor God in our everyday life or our conscience will not be kind to us.

4. As a Calvinist, I take to heart the warnings of Scripture; it's part of making God's calling and choosing of us certain.

5. Not because I subscribe to what is called Calvinism means I'm going to heaven. I subscribe to it because I think it's biblical.

6. Myself and everyone else, Calvinists or not, are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, but is the gift of works, and this saving is unto serving (Eph.2:8-10).

7. Are there tares among the wheat? Of course! Jesus taught that this would be the case in the mystery form of the Kingdom (Matt.13).

8. Hence, IMO, the warnings of Scripture, to keep us on track and confirm our election. That's why, I live with the tensions of Scripture. They are there.