The Flood and Complex Creatures

[Jordan Kurecki]

First off, if you believe in Darwinian Evolution, I am not at all interested in what you have to say.

I was thinking about something that bothered my last night.

Some of you may have heard about how the Bombadeer beetle, or other creatures with unique characteristics that refute evolutionary process, for example the long neck of the giraffe:

It is my understanding that the giraffe has two different organs in it's neck, 1 to keep blood in the brain, and another to keep blood from flowing into the brain, these two organs must both be present in order for the giraffe not to die when raising and lowering it's head. therefore the 2 organs and the neck of the giraffe must "evolve" at the same time. I have often heard this used to debunk darwinian evolution.



1. where did the multitude of insects we get come from if the flood destroyed everything.

2. if Noah only took 2 of every kind of animal, how in the world do we end up with a giraffe with a long neck and all these other complex creatures, especially knowing the limits of micro evolution?

 

[evangelist6589]

I can answer the first question in that insects did not need the arc because of their eggs which can survive in water. Also some insects traveled on the animals.

 

[Scarlett O.]

1. where did the multitude of insects we get come from if the flood destroyed everything.

Actually - and bear with me - the global Flood of the Bible did not destroy literally everything.

Genesis 7:21-23

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

If it swam in the water, it did not die. If it belonged to the Animal Kingdom and it did not breathe the breath of life through its nostrils, it did not die.

Insects or at the very least insect eggs and larva could have lived in all of the dead flesh in the water and on the animals in the ark.

2. if Noah only took 2 of every kind of animal, how in the world do we end up with a giraffe with a long neck and all these other complex creatures, especially knowing the limits of micro evolution?

I'm not sure that I understand. We ended up with complex creatures such as giraffes with long necks, because the long-necked giraffe and it's mate were on the Ark.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

thanks folks.

 

[preachinjesus]

I don't believe in Darwinian evolution...well nobody does anymore.

That said, I place the Flood at a stage of the development of Earth far before most Young Earth Creationists. You can get the genetic differentiation required for such a multiplicity of species this way.

Really the only way folks trace the age of the Earth/Creation is to use the genealogy lists from the NT and the OT. The challenge with them is that there are gaps and none of them are the same. Its like the lists of the tribes of Israel, it gets complicated.

I do believe that the Earth and Universe are created with age built in which also includes the various species and diversification. So if we posit that God could supernaturally summon animals, two of every kind, to the Ark, this can certainly include other species. If we allow a generous theological conversation, we can also note that God isn't restrained to only provide a single miracle in the place of the Ark. It is realistic that, across varying continents God could likely have preserved other species in different ways if we believe in a global Flood.

Its complicated. May we be generous in our discussion. This is a good question.

 

[righteousdude2]

First off, if you believe in Darwinian Evolution, I am not at all interested in what you have to say.

I was thinking about something that bothered my last night.

Some of you may have heard about how the Bombadeer beetle, or other creatures with unique characteristics that refute evolutionary process, for example the long neck of the giraffe:

It is my understanding that the giraffe has two different organs in it's neck, 1 to keep blood in the brain, and another to keep blood from flowing into the brain, these two organs must both be present in order for the giraffe not to die when raising and lowering it's head. therefore the 2 organs and the neck of the giraffe must "evolve" at the same time. I have often heard this used to debunk darwinian evolution.



1. where did the multitude of insects we get come from if the flood destroyed everything.

2. if Noah only took 2 of every kind of animal, how in the world do we end up with a giraffe with a long neck and all these other complex creatures, especially knowing the limits of micro evolution?

Brother, this is a well-thought-out question, and maybe this is a cop out on my behalf, but the truth is, I have always believed that if the Bible said God did it, that was good enough for me!

After all, Hebrews tells us that faith is believing in that which isn't visible, and this is one of those things in the Bible that we'd have to have been there to believe, and then we'd only been privileged to tell about if we were one of the chosen with Noah!

The same thing can be asked about the walls of Jericho, the great fish that swallowed Jonah, or creation itself! It is in the word of God because it happened, and that is all I need to know at this time! Faith remains the substance of that which we can't see, but still hold to as being a fact!!

Shalom!

 

[MNJacob]

A couple of things to consider. In my opinion evolution of insects as insects after the flood doesn't contradict Biblical creation accounts. Evolution of any animal type "according to it's own kind" after the flood really doesn't contradict the creation accounts at all. Microevolution within species and type is not non-biblical, and can be demonstrated in a couple of generations.

Second, how many of each "clean" animal did Noah take with him? It wasn't two.

 

[Aaron]

First off, if you believe in Darwinian Evolution, I am not at all interested in what you have to say.

I was thinking about something that bothered my last night.

Some of you may have heard about how the Bombadeer beetle, or other creatures with unique characteristics that refute evolutionary process, for example the long neck of the giraffe:

It is my understanding that the giraffe has two different organs in it's neck, 1 to keep blood in the brain, and another to keep blood from flowing into the brain, these two organs must both be present in order for the giraffe not to die when raising and lowering it's head. therefore the 2 organs and the neck of the giraffe must "evolve" at the same time. I have often heard this used to debunk darwinian evolution.



1. where did the multitude of insects we get come from if the flood destroyed everything.

2. if Noah only took 2 of every kind of animal, how in the world do we end up with a giraffe with a long neck and all these other complex creatures, especially knowing the limits of micro evolution?

Two of every creature. It isn't difficult.

 

[wpe3bql]

Actually Noah didn't take just 2 of each "sort" (Gen. 6:19). Genesis 7:2-3 states that he took seven of each "clean" beast. Only the "beasts that are not clean" were two taken.

Moreover, the flood lasted more than 40 days.

Genesis 7:24 says that "the water covered the earth for 150 days--which was approximately three months.

There are many so-called "urban legends" concerning the events surrounding Noah's flood.

I can only speculate the reason(s) behind some of them.

EXAMPLES:

1) Methuselah. If you examine the life spans of the descendants of Adam in Genesis 5 (assuming that the "years" were actual 360 or so days--and I believe they were approximately that long), one finds that old Methuselah died in the same year that the Genesis flood began.

I read somewhere (can't exactly recall where right now) that the name "Methuselah" literally meant some kind of "warning of impending danger/destruction." IOW, he was some kind of "omen" that people needed to heed, especially when he died.

If that were true, obviously only Noah and his family paid much heed to it.

2) How did Noah know which animals were "clean" & which ones weren't? Up to that time, the only thing I read is that God allowed Adam to name all the animals (Gen. 2:20), but I haven't read anywhere where God told the antediluvian people specifically which ones were "clean" and which were "unclean."

Of course the "human author" of Genesis--Moses--would have known which animals were "clean" and which ones weren't because he describes them in Leviticus. Maybe there were some oral statements prior to the Exodus account that told which animals were which, but again, that seems to be only speculation without any specific verifiable Holy Writ to prove it.

3) The "Ark." Most of us have seen comical illustrations that portray Noah's Ark as some kind of sailing vessel, and Noah at the helm anxiously trying to steer the boat away from the crashing waves that the flood produced.

IMHO, nothing remotely similar to that ever took place during the Genesis Flood.

The word "ark" (tebah Strong's # 8392) doesn't mean a kind of sailing vessel at all. Rather it simply means a box-like structure, or maybe a basket. Baby Moses was put in a tebah to hide himself from Pharaoh's hit men. The "ark" of the covenant that was placed in the tabernacle's Holy of Holies certainly wasn't a sailing vessel or a boat. It was a tebah--a box.

Why people think that Noah and his family and all the animals were kept in some kind of sailing vessel is beyond me.

Then too, if Noah had to steer the ark through the wind-tossed sea, wouldn't you think that after awhile he'd become rather sea sick?

And what about all those animals on board? I can just imagine Ham, Shem & Japheth arguing over who's going to clean up all the piles of animal barf (or worse!) inside the ark!

Knowing men as I do, they probably decided to "let the women-folk clean it up....after all ain't that what they're for??!!":laugh: ....and just imagine the bedtime conversations between those three dudes and their "lovingly submissive" wives! :tonofbricks:

Anyway, these are just some things about the Genesis Flood that I guess we'll not find out all the answers in this life. :wavey:

 

[quantumfaith]

I do "believe" in evolution....so I will just keep my mouth (keyboard) silent.

 

[Aaron]

I do "believe" in evolution....so I will just keep my mouth (keyboard) silent.

Which, being interpreted meaneth, he doesn't "believe" in the flood.

*Trifling objection preemption:

quantum: Yes I do. You take that back you big meany-bully, you! I believe in its meaning, which is the important thing. It isn't history, it's faith, blah, blah, blah.

Me: I.O.W. you don't believe in a deluge that covered the face of the earth, and a literal ancient vessel in which eight souls and two of each kind of animal were preserved.

quantum: I do too believe in the NOAH.


Me: You mean, Noah, an individual, or NOAH the idea?

quantum: You're just too mean to talk to! I'm better than you, so I'm not going to lower myself to your standards!

 

[quantumfaith]

Which, being interpreted meaneth, he doesn't "believe" in the flood.

*Trifling objection preemption:

quantum: Yes I do. You take that back you big meany-bully, you! I believe in its meaning, which is the important thing. It isn't history, it's faith, blah, blah, blah.

Me: I.O.W. you don't believe in a deluge that covered the face of the earth, and a literal ancient vessel in which eight souls and two of each kind of animal were preserved.

quantum: I do too believe in the NOAH.


Me: You mean, Noah, an individual, or NOAH the idea?

quantum: You're just too mean to talk to! I'm better than you, so I'm not going to lower myself to your standards!

Your childishness has been joyfully missed. Oh I forgot to ask...is that intentional or ignorant deceit?

 

[Aaron]

It's satire. :godisgood: