The Fourth Commandment

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,

You are not dealing with these things objectively. For example, Deuteronomy chapter five interprets what is written on stone to have forward glance to redemption as typified by the exodus from Egypt, which is introduced immediately after the seventh day Sabbath command in Leviticus 23 or in the Passover feast. Therefore written in stone or not it is written in God's Word and expressed to them when it was written in stone. Be fair here!

Leviticus 23 begins with the seventh day Sabbath but the sabbaths of the feasts occur on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd and 50th days and their references are far more mentioned and emphasized than the seventh day sabbath. Furthermore, here is absolute proof they are first day Sabbaths, the 50th day Sabbath occurred after seven regular weekly sabbaths demonstrating it can be nothing other than a first day of the week Sabbath. This in turn infers that the other Sabbath days (1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd) are also first day of the week Sabbaths. The year of Jubillee which is the greatest Sabbath year is followed by seven seventh year sabbaths corresponding to the seven seventh day week Sabbaths that precede the 50th day Sabbath (Pentecost). In each case the GREATER SABBATH is the 50th which cannot be denied are the first day of the week Sabbaths. I could stop right here and this is sufficient evidence for a new first day of the week Sabbath to memoralize a greater work than creation that points forward to a new Creation symbolized by the year of Jubilee or eternal EIGHTH day Sabbath.

Therefore, for you to say there is no mention of "first day of the week" Sabbaths is purely argumentative without any objectivity for the facts of the text.

I have already answered your Isaiah 66 asumption and demonstrated there is plenty of evidence prior to the writing of Isaiah 66 for a new and another Sabbath application.

Finally, in regard to your salvation apostasy theory, John 6:37,39 denies your contention altogether. NONE given by the Father to the Son fail to come to the Son and NONE given by the Father are lost. Your theory demands the very opposite which demonstrates your interpretations of Galatians 5:4; Romans 11, etc are flawed or Christ has lied.

Yet one has to admit that there is no forward glance in the language of the 4th commandment as written in stone and that Adam and Eve could not possibly have received the Sabbath as a holy day thinking of future redemption or salvation in anyway.

In addition we have the Isaiah 66 reference to Sabbath continuing into the New Earth and being applicable to "all mankind" as a day of worship.

Exegesis would not allow us to edit Isaiah's text to make Sabbath refer to "some other day".




1. There is no mention at all in Lev 23 of a "First day Sabbath"
2. There is no mention at all in Lev 23 that a first day sabbath "characterizes all of these feasts"
3. There is no indication at all in Lev 23 that by keeping the 7th day Sabbath you have kept all of the annual feasts - because they are in "addition" and they are not given until Sinai.




The New Covenant of Heb 8:6-11 is the One Gospel under which all OT saints (as those listed in Heb 11) were saved - then, at that time.

The Sabbath of the New Covenant is contained in the Law of God for in the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the heart and mind (As Jeremiah states and Paul affirms in Heb 8).

There is no "resurrection day is a sign and seal" in all of scripture.



1. The Heb 9 discussion of the Old Covenant is merely a reference to the liturgy and services of the OT period when the sanctuary was in place.

Thus it is a type of the spiritual old covenant. But the saints of the OT could only have been saved by the "One Gospel" Gal 1:6-11 and so in Heb 4 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".


2. Being saved as a promise - is still what happens today "IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9. The promises of God are still the hope of the saints whose faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" for now we see in a glass darkly.




There is no "new Sabbath day" language in all of scripture.



There is "Sabbath done away with" in all of scripture.

There is the Sabbath of Isaiah's day - (context in keeping with exegesis) that is to be observed in the New Earth however (Isaiah 66)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The kind of mental gymnastics that are done conerning this are mind boggling to me.

The brother who pointed out that Jesus is our Sabbath and that we enter that Sabbath by believing on/in Jesus seems to me to be the straightforward teaching of Hebrews. Trying to pin point this to a particular day seems outside of the text itself. The only day I see it pointing to is "today" if you hear His voice, harden not your heart.

Whether a brother or sister chooses to regard one day of the week above another is left to the conscience of the Christian. Only, let's not judge each other in this matter, but leave it to their freedom in Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

You are not dealing with these things objectively. For example, Deuteronomy chapter five interprets what is written on stone to have forward glance to redemption as typified by the exodus from Egypt

Moses does not state in Deut 5 that when the Sabbath was given to Adam - it had a forward glance to redemption.

God does not say that in Ex 20 either.

Moses argues that the Israelites should do as they were commanded (40 years earlier) and then the reason why they should obey God above all other nations is given "And you shall REMEMBER that yo WERE a slave...and the Lord your God brought you out...".

Nothing in this pointed forward to anything. It all was stated as a memorial and in the case of the Sabbath it was stated that God's gave them "these ten Words" Ex 34:28 and "He added no more" Deut 5:22

Thus in Is 66 when we see the Sabbath being kept - even in the New earth - proper exegesis insists that we not "insert a changed day".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Leviticus 23 begins with the seventh day Sabbath but the sabbaths of the feasts occur on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd and 50th days and their references are far more mentioned and emphasized than the seventh day sabbath. Furthermore, here is absolute proof they are first day Sabbaths, the 50th day Sabbath occurred after seven regular weekly sabbaths demonstrating it can be nothing other than a first day of the week Sabbath. This in turn infers that the other Sabbath days (1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd) are also first day of the week Sabbaths.

In Lev 23 Passover always starts on the 14th day of the 1st month - no matter what day of the week that is.

The 15th day of the first month Lev 23:6-7 is an annual Sabbath -- and that too can fall on any day of the week.

You do err in your calculations.

The annual feasts were scheduled based on the days of the month - not based on "a first day Sabbath".

And finally - there is no such thing in all of scripture as "first day Sabbath" - ever mentioned - no not even once.

The year of Jubillee which is the greatest Sabbath year is followed by seven seventh year sabbaths corresponding to the seven seventh day week Sabbaths that precede the 50th day Sabbath (Pentecost). In each case the GREATER SABBATH is the 50th which cannot be denied are the first day of the week Sabbaths. I could stop right here and this is sufficient evidence for a new first day of the week Sabbath

Except that there is no such thing as a 50th day Sabbath where the first day is said to be any specific day of the week in Lev 23 - because the spring feasts always begin on the 14th day of the month regardless of what day of the week that is.

And the Jubilee year has no reference at all to a "first day Sabbath". Lev 25:8-11 mentions no "first day Sabbath" at all - yet this is the text that defines the Jubilee.

to memoralize a greater work than creation that points forward to a new Creation symbolized by the year of Jubilee or eternal EIGHTH day Sabbath.

Eigth day Sabbath is another good example of a term we do not find in scripture.

I have already answered your Isaiah 66 asumption and demonstrated there is plenty of evidence prior to the writing of Isaiah 66 for a new and another Sabbath application.

Since there is no actual Bible text speaking of a "first day Sabbath" or telling us that Isaiah was not referencing the 4th commandment when he said "from Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall all mankind" come before God to worship in the New Earth..Your argument is stuck.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Finally, in regard to your salvation apostasy theory, John 6:37,39 denies your contention altogether. NONE given by the Father to the Son fail to come to the Son and NONE given by the Father are lost.

In John 6:40 the one who is saved must "behold AND believe" - you seem to want to argue that they can "behold and disbelieve" and be saved no matter what Christ said to the contrary.

Christ argues in that same book - in John 15 that "branches IN ME" are cut off and burned in the fire if they do not produce fruit after being pruned.

You cannot bend John 6 to contradict John 15.

It is the same author writing and it is the same Christ speaking.

In Matt 7 Christ argues that it is "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord lord that enters the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" and then Christ said this means that they must "hear my words and acts on them".

Thus in John 14:15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments".

John later writes in 1John 5 "this is the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments and His Commandments are not burdensome"

No wonder in Matt 18 Christ teaches the lesson of "forgiveness revoked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Adam is not even considered by God in the giving of the ten commandments at Mount Sinai. Adam is not the audiance God is addressing. In Deuteronomy 5 creation is not the reason for observing the Sabbath but redemption from Egypt is the stated reason:


12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Your trying to define God's reasons for giving the fourth commandment to be confined to Adam when the text has no reference, no mention and no application to Adam. When you have to protect and defend an interpetation that requires you to ignore the audiance the fourth command is given to and ignore and supersede the stated reasons God for gives that audiance for observing the fourth command you know it is because your interpretation is false and misleading.

Moses does not state in Deut 5 that when the Sabbath was given to Adam - it had a forward glance to redemption.

God does not say that in Ex 20 either.

Moses argues that the Israelites should do as they were commanded (40 years earlier) and then the reason why they should obey God above all other nations is given "And you shall REMEMBER that yo WERE a slave...and the Lord your God brought you out...".

Nothing in this pointed forward to anything. It all was stated as a memorial and in the case of the Sabbath it was stated that God's gave them "these ten Words" Ex 34:28 and "He added no more" Deut 5:22

Thus in Is 66 when we see the Sabbath being kept - even in the New earth - proper exegesis insists that we not "insert a changed day".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, you are simply refusing to face reality. The 50th day follows regular seven seventh day sabbaths beginning with the regular seventh day Sabbath after passover. Thus by necessity must occur on the FIRST DAY of the week, always without exception regardless of the calendar. Second, the 50th day was a Sabbath thus a FIRST DAY Sabbath and it was the GREATER SABBATH at the end of this seven regular sabbath day cycle. The same must hold true for the year of Jubilee. There is no honest way to escape these facts.

In Lev 23 Passover always starts on the 14th day of the 1st month - no matter what day of the week that is.

The 15th day of the first month Lev 23:6-7 is an annual Sabbath -- and that too can fall on any day of the week.

You do err in your calculations.

The annual feasts were scheduled based on the days of the month - not based on "a first day Sabbath".

And finally - there is no such thing in all of scripture as "first day Sabbath" - ever mentioned - no not even once.




Except that there is no such thing as a 50th day Sabbath where the first day is said to be any specific day of the week in Lev 23 - because the spring feasts always begin on the 14th day of the month regardless of what day of the week that is.

And the Jubilee year has no reference at all to a "first day Sabbath". Lev 25:8-11 mentions no "first day Sabbath" at all - yet this is the text that defines the Jubilee.



Eigth day Sabbath is another good example of a term we do not find in scripture.



Since there is no actual Bible text speaking of a "first day Sabbath" or telling us that Isaiah was not referencing the 4th commandment when he said "from Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall all mankind" come before God to worship in the New Earth..Your argument is stuck.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your explanation of John 6:40 REPUDIATES Christ previous statement in John 6:39:

"OF ALL that the Father giveth me I shall LOSE NOTHING but should raise it up in the last day"

Thus your interpretation of Christ in John 6:40 is wrong or Christ is a liar or else "LOSE NOTHING" means nothing.

In John 6:40 the one who is saved must "behold AND believe" - you seem to want to argue that they can "behold and disbelieve" and be saved no matter what Christ said to the contrary.

Christ argues in that same book - in John 15 that "branches IN ME" are cut off and burned in the fire if they do not produce fruit after being pruned.

You cannot bend John 6 to contradict John 15.

It is the same author writing and it is the same Christ speaking.

In Matt 7 Christ argues that it is "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord lord that enters the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" and then Christ said this means that they must "hear my words and acts on them".

Thus in John 14:15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments".

John later writes in 1John 5 "this is the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments and His Commandments are not burdensome"

No wonder in Matt 18 Christ teaches the lesson of "forgiveness revoked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, I do not deny your application at all but I do deny it is the complete application of the Sabbath for several obvious reasons.

1. Hebrews 4:1-3 states those who observed a weekly sabbath had the same gospel preached to them and they would enter into the same spiritual rest by faith and yet that did not do away with the weekly observance of a sabbath.

2. Hebrews 4:4-8 argues that there is something more than entrance into the gospel rest in hebrews 4:1-2 that fulfills the Sabbath day observance. The writer lists a series of denials of fulfilment (Joshua, David).

3. hebrews 4:9-10 reaffirms the observance of a weekly Sabbath based upon the redemptive work of Christ that is compared to the work of Creation in verse 4 and argues that a weekly Sabbath was set apart to commemorate his finished work just as a weekly Sabbath was set apart to commemorate God's finished work of creation. The contextual antecedent for "he" is our Great High Priest in verse 14.

4. Hebrews 4:11-14 point yet forward to the fulfillment of the Sabbath day rest to something the present writer and readers had yet to enter. Something in addition to entrance into the promised land by Joshua. Something in addition to entrance into a Kingdom rule under David. Something yet ahead that will be obtained by the work of our Great High Preist (vv. 11, 14).

5. This is what the year of Jubillee and the first day Sabbaths in Leviticus 23 point forward to because of the redemptive work of Christ, which we have not yet entered.

The sabbath of observance of the first day of the week or "The Lord's Day" commemorates that hope based upon the finished work of redemption by Christ on the first day of the week and pointing to the completion of that work in a new heaven and new earth. Until that new heaven and earth arrive there "remaineth a Sabbath day observance for the people of God."

The kind of mental gymnastics that are done conerning this are mind boggling to me.

The brother who pointed out that Jesus is our Sabbath and that we enter that Sabbath by believing on/in Jesus seems to me to be the straightforward teaching of Hebrews. Trying to pin point this to a particular day seems outside of the text itself. The only day I see it pointing to is "today" if you hear His voice, harden not your heart.

Whether a brother or sister chooses to regard one day of the week above another is left to the conscience of the Christian. Only, let's not judge each other in this matter, but leave it to their freedom in Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

My friend, you are simply refusing to face reality. The 50th day follows regular seven seventh day sabbaths beginning with the regular seventh day Sabbath after passover.

Then "Pentecost" would almost never be 50 days after Passover because it would depend on how close to a creation-memorial Seventh-day Sabbath the 14th of Nisan landed.

As it is - Pentecost is in fact 50 days after Passover.

But even worse for your view is that IF the intent was to honor "week day 1" (a day given no name - only a number) as a future weekly Sabbath - then the text would have at least mentioned "week day one" or something like it - as this would have been an important aspect of the teaching.

But the facts of the case are that there is no focus at all in the Lev 23 text on "week day 1".

Thus by necessity must occur on the FIRST DAY of the week, always without exception regardless of the calendar. Second, the 50th day was a Sabbath thus a FIRST DAY Sabbath and it was the GREATER SABBATH at the end of this seven regular sabbath day cycle. The same must hold true for the year of Jubilee. There is no honest way to escape these facts.

You are building a casy for selebrating a once every 50 days "Sabbath" but since the Nisan 14 date could fall on any day of the week - you are stuck with no day of the week to insist upon for your idea of keeping a once-every-50-day Sabbath under the New Covenant.

(EVen so - Lev 23 says nothing about Pentecost being celebrated repeatedly under the New Covenant - instead of once per year)

You seem to be following a blind alley.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are refusing to face the facts. Pentecost ALWAYS occurs the day after the seventh regular Sabbath and that day would ALWAYS be the first day of the week. Penteocost is a Sabbath Day.

Jubilee ALWAYS occurs the year after the seventh regular Sabbath year and that would ALWAYS be the first year of a new week of years. Jubilee is a Sabbath Year.

In Mark 16:1 the regular Sabbath day is past while in Mark 16:2 refers to the first day of the week as "mia sabbatwn" which is the normal language for the "first day of the week" however, in Mark 16:9 the language is changed to "protos sabbatou" which literally means the "first Sabbath in a new series." The term "protos" is used in the New Testament as the first in a new series of things. The term "sabbatou" is the consistent term used for the Sabbath day (see Mark 16:1). Thus the resurrection day is termed the "first Sabbath in a new series of sabbaths."

In Hebrews 4:9 we are told there remains a Sabbath day keeping for the people of God based upon the fact that "he" ceased from his works as God ceased from the works of creation. We are told in verse 4 how God ceased from the works of creation by setting apart the creation Sabbath. No other individual or his work can be compared to God and the work of creation other than the work of our High preist (v. 14) and He set apart a Sabbath day to commemorate the greater finished work of redemption which was finished on the first day of the week precisely between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m or the fourth watch ("proee").

Psalm 118:20-24 is found in the context of the Messiah and his death and resurrection as our Savioir. The Jews rejected the Messiah by putting him to death (v. 22) but God made him the head of the corner by resurrecting him from the dead (vv. 22-23) and this text is applied to the resurrection of Christ in Acts 4:10-11. Psalm 118:23 declares that the resurrection of Christ "This is the Lord's doing" and it is a "marvelous" thing. This resurrection by God is further described as follows:

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

The Hebrew term translated "made" can be translated "made to be observed" and that is the meaning here because the text goes on to describe how that day is to be observed - "we will rejoice and be glad in IT." Why should we "rejoice" because God raised Christ up from the grave? Why should we be "glad in IT" because our redemption is secured by his victory over death, hell and the grave and that is why God made this day to be observed because in it all history changed and victory over death and hell was obtained.

You cannot deny that Psalm 118:20-24 applies to the resurrection day of Chrsist because Peter applies it directly to his resurrection in Acts 4:10-11. Moreover, Jesus repeatedly applies this same text to himself throughout the gospels predicting his death by the Jews (Mt. 21:42; Mk. 12:11; Lk. 20:17). Peter again applies it directly to Christ (I Pet. 2:4-8). Psalms 118:23-24 is God's direct response to the rejection of Christ by killing him. Hence, the only possible "day" made by God to be observed by rejoicing in response to the Jewish rejection and killling of Jesus is His resurrection day and the New Testament precisely pin points the resurrection to have occurred at the fourth watch between 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. Sunday morning and uses the technical word for the fourth watch in describing the time of his resurrection (Mk. 16:9 "proee").

The Fourth Commandment is commanded for redemptive reasons (Deut. 5) and the Sabbatical law found in the fourth commandment is applied to other days than the seventh day sabbath and in particular to days that occur upon the first day of the week in regard to the feasts that typify the redemptive work of Christ.

Then "Pentecost" would almost never be 50 days after Passover because it would depend on how close to a creation-memorial Seventh-day Sabbath the 14th of Nisan landed.

As it is - Pentecost is in fact 50 days after Passover.

But even worse for your view is that IF the intent was to honor "week day 1" (a day given no name - only a number) as a future weekly Sabbath - then the text would have at least mentioned "week day one" or something like it - as this would have been an important aspect of the teaching.

But the facts of the case are that there is no focus at all in the Lev 23 text on "week day 1".




You are building a casy for selebrating a once every 50 days "Sabbath" but since the Nisan 14 date could fall on any day of the week - you are stuck with no day of the week to insist upon for your idea of keeping a once-every-50-day Sabbath under the New Covenant.

(EVen so - Lev 23 says nothing about Pentecost being celebrated repeatedly under the New Covenant - instead of once per year)

You seem to be following a blind alley.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You are refusing to face the facts. Pentecost ALWAYS occurs the day after the seventh regular Sabbath and that day would ALWAYS be the first day of the week. Penteocost is a Sabbath Day.

1. Pentecost always occurs 50 days after Passover - hence "the name"
and Josephus tells us the same thing.

2. Since Nisan 14 falls on no specifice day of the week each year - but is different every year - your argument reduces to celebrating a once every 50 days "new Sabbath" that can be any day of the week.

3. But even if we allow your bending the text so that Pentecost is almost never 50 days after Passover (so it meets your argument's "need") - then you still have a "once every 44-50 day holy day" that will be on week day 1 every 44 to 50 days or so.

Far from a weekly basis for "week day 1" observance.

Jubilee ALWAYS occurs the year after the seventh regular Sabbath year and that would ALWAYS be the first year of a new week of years. Jubilee is a Sabbath Year.

Again - you are simply building the case for celebrating a "holy year" once ever 49 years.

You seem to be grasping at straws.

In Mark 16:1 the regular Sabbath day is past while in Mark 16:2 refers to the first day of the week as "mia sabbatwn" which is the normal language for the "first day of the week"

That much is true.

however, in Mark 16:9 the language is changed to "protos sabbatou" which literally means the "first Sabbath in a new series." The term "protos" is used in the New Testament as the first in a new series of things. The term "sabbatou" is the consistent term used for the Sabbath day (see Mark 16:1). Thus the resurrection day is termed the "first Sabbath in a new series of sabbaths."

1. Protos does not mean "a whole new series" -
2. Sabbatou can mean "week" as we see in Luke 18:12 and Mark 16:9

Lk 18:12
'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
nhsteuw div tou sabbatou, apodekatw panta osa ktwmai.

In Hebrews 4:9 we are told there remains a Sabbath day keeping for the people of God

True - Paul argues it is the same Sabbath day "remaining" from the Ps 95 quoted in Heb 4:7.

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

The Hebrew term translated "made" can be translated "made to be observed" and that is the meaning here because the text goes on to describe how that day is to be observed - "we will rejoice and be glad in IT." Why should we "rejoice" because God raised Christ up from the grave? Why should we be "glad in IT" because our redemption is secured by his victory over death, hell and the grave and that is why God made this day to be observed because in it all history changed and victory over death and hell was obtained.

You cannot deny that Psalm 118:20-24 applies to the resurrection

There is no question that this speaks about the life of Christ

19Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
20This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
21I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

But it says nothing about a 7 day cycle for memorializing the day of Christ's resurrection - vs an annual cycle - vs any cycle since it does not talk about memorializing anything on a cyclic basis of any kind.

day of Chrsist because Peter applies it directly to his resurrection in Acts 4:10-11.

Peter applies the text "to Christ" in Acts 4 - he does not limit it to the resurrection of Christ.

Christ IS the stone that the builders rejected in Acts 4.

in 1Cor 10:4 Christ IS the rock - the stone out of which comes living water.

Moreover, Jesus repeatedly applies this same text to himself throughout the gospels predicting his death by the Jews (Mt. 21:42; Mk. 12:11; Lk. 20:17).
Peter again applies it directly to Christ (I Pet. 2:4-8).

These texts apply Ps 118 to Christ - but do not limit it to his resurrection nor do they give any mention of a 7 day cycle for memorializing the resurrection event.

The Fourth Commandment is commanded for redemptive reasons (Deut. 5)

1. Not in Eden.
2. Not in Exo 20:8-11 when God speaks and writes it and as Deut 5 says "he added no more"
3. Even the Deut 5 introduction to the 4th commandment insists that Israel obey it as God GAVE it 40 years earlier.

The Deut 5 text only ADDs to the initial command the "memorial" specific to Israel of their deliverance by God - as added incentive for them to be grateful and honor HIS Holy Day.

At no point does Deut 5 say "start honoring the day you left Egypt instead of the day that God commanded".

and the Sabbatical law found in the fourth commandment is applied to other days than the seventh day sabbath

No - it is not.

It is the Word of God that makes the Sabbath binding and gives it authority.

God's word in Lev 23 also creates annual Sabbaths making them binding and does not make the case that because the 7th day Sabbath is binding - THEN Passover is binding.

There is no such connection in scripture. The Passover derives it's binding authority from "the Word of God" in Lev 23 not from the Creation event or from the 4th commandment of Ex 20:8-11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, you live in a fairy tale world. You cannot possibly deny that Pentecost occurs the day after the 7th regular sabbath?

And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 ¶ And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD

Counting of fity days does not begin with Nissan 14 but from the The sheave offering which is offered the day after the Sabbath - v. 11. They count from that Sabbath (v. 15) seven Sabbath "weeks" and Pentocost occurs on the day after the the seventh sabbath - that will always put it on the first day of the Week. Even the Jews recognized this.

"protos" does not mean "a whole new series" but it does mean the "first" in a whole new series.

Peter applies Psalm 118:23-24 directly to the resurrection of jesus Christ in Acts 4:10-11. Love it or hate it, that cannot be denied as "the day" God made to be observed by rejoicing and gladness in regard to what God did in contrast to what the jews did. The jews killed him and God raised him.

Finally, you refuse to acknowledge that the Sabbath law is applied WIDER than to merely creation (Deut. 5). No one denies the creation application in Exodus by God but you deny the redemption application in Deuteronmy 5 because it proves there is a WIDER application than what SDA/Jews want to restrict it to.

The bottom line is that the fourth commandment can be properly applied to the seventh day of the week but CANNOT be completely restricted to the seventh day of the week as God applies the Sabbath laws to other days and years, thus opening the way to apply it to another day that commemorates a GREATER work than that in creation and to a GREATER creation to come.

1. Pentecost always occurs 50 days after Passover - hence "the name"
and Josephus tells us the same thing.

2. Since Nisan 14 falls on no specifice day of the week each year - but is different every year - your argument reduces to celebrating a once every 50 days "new Sabbath" that can be any day of the week.

3. But even if we allow your bending the text so that Pentecost is almost never 50 days after Passover (so it meets your argument's "need") - then you still have a "once every 44-50 day holy day" that will be on week day 1 every 44 to 50 days or so.

Far from a weekly basis for "week day 1" observance.



Again - you are simply building the case for celebrating a "holy year" once ever 49 years.

You seem to be grasping at straws.



That much is true.



1. Protos does not mean "a whole new series" -
2. Sabbatou can mean "week" as we see in Luke 18:12 and Mark 16:9

Lk 18:12
'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
nhsteuw div tou sabbatou, apodekatw panta osa ktwmai.




True - Paul argues it is the same Sabbath day "remaining" from the Ps 95 quoted in Heb 4:7.





There is no question that this speaks about the life of Christ



But it says nothing about a 7 day cycle for memorializing the day of Christ's resurrection - vs an annual cycle - vs any cycle since it does not talk about memorializing anything on a cyclic basis of any kind.



Peter applies the text "to Christ" in Acts 4 - he does not limit it to the resurrection of Christ.

Christ IS the stone that the builders rejected in Acts 4.

in 1Cor 10:4 Christ IS the rock - the stone out of which comes living water.




These texts apply Ps 118 to Christ - but do not limit it to his resurrection nor do they give any mention of a 7 day cycle for memorializing the resurrection event.




1. Not in Eden.
2. Not in Exo 20:8-11 when God speaks and writes it and as Deut 5 says "he added no more"
3. Even the Deut 5 introduction to the 4th commandment insists that Israel obey it as God GAVE it 40 years earlier.

The Deut 5 text only ADDs to the initial command the "memorial" specific to Israel of their deliverance by God - as added incentive for them to be grateful and honor HIS Holy Day.

At no point does Deut 5 say "start honoring the day you left Egypt instead of the day that God commanded".



No - it is not.

It is the Word of God that makes the Sabbath binding and gives it authority.

God's word in Lev 23 also creates annual Sabbaths making them binding and does not make the case that because the 7th day Sabbath is binding - THEN Passover is binding.

There is no such connection in scripture. The Passover derives it's binding authority from "the Word of God" in Lev 23 not from the Creation event or from the 4th commandment of Ex 20:8-11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

Gen: 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.


Like 23: 44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last . . . 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.



In other words, sun goes dark, sun returns, new day. Friday became Saturday. The sun went down and rose a second time. Sunday, but the Jews didn't catch on. <G>

 

[Dr. Walter]

Gen: 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.


Like 23: 44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last . . . 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.



In other words, sun goes dark, sun returns, new day. Friday became Saturday. The sun went down and rose a second time. Sunday, but the Jews didn't catch on. <G>

Yeah! What is very interesting is that in Mark 13:35 Jesus describes the four watches of the night.

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

6 pm. to 9 pm = at even
9 pm. to 12 pm = at midnight
12 am to 3 am - cockcrowing
3 am. to 6 am - in the morning (Greek "proee"

The Greek term "proee" was understood as a technical term by Jesus and used so in this very passage for the fourth watch of the night that occurred between 3 a.m to 6 a.m. Jesus had come walking upon the water at the fourth watch (Mt. 14:25).

This is the word that the gospel writers use to define the time of his resurrection in Mark 16:9 before the sun had risen.

 

[Eric B]

My friend, you live in a fairy tale world. You cannot possibly deny that Pentecost occurs the day after the 7th regular sabbath?

And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 ¶ And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD

Counting of fity days does not begin with Nissan 14 but from the The sheave offering which is offered the day after the Sabbath - v. 11. They count from that Sabbath (v. 15) seven Sabbath "weeks" and Pentocost occurs on the day after the the seventh sabbath - that will always put it on the first day of the Week. Even the Jews recognized this.

Actually, there was a dispute among Jews as to whether the "sabbath" mentioned was the weekly sabbath, or the annual sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread. The Pharisees held it as the annual day (meaning the day after, the wave sheaf offering, and the Passover 7 weeks after that, could be any day of the week, and the Sadducees held that it was the weekly sabbath, so that both days would always be on a Sunday.

The Pharisees were the ones Christ said had the right doctrines and practice. And todays Jews hold their Pentecost on any day of the week (Though at least some keep it as two consecutive days due to some other dispute as to when it falls).

I thought the SDA's held to the "always on a Sunday" view. Why is Bob arguing against that? I know SDA's hold the traditional Friday Crucifixion/Sunday Resurrection. Those who hold that the wave sheaf and Passover can fall on any day also hold the Wed. Crucifixion/sabbath sundown resurrection; and the wave sheaf day, and Passover would both have fallen on Thursday that year.

There is a point that if the wave sheaf day (representing God's acceptance of the harvest) and Christ's Resurrection (representing the newness of life), and the day of Pentecost (when the apostolic Church began) were on Sundays, that that would point to Sunday as the new Christian day.
Hence, why churches often applied to Sunday Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I personally, don't see how it can be avoided that what the text is referring to is seven regular sabbaths regardless when you begin counting and the day after the seventh sabbath is Pentecost. This beginning point is actually determined by the wave offering as the first-fruits of harvest and so there had to be some room for first-fruits to be gathered and offered after the first sabbath. The gathering of the first-fruits may vary from year to year but it is offered the day after the first sabbath after Passover.

Actually, there was a dispute among Jews as to whether the "sabbath" mentioned was the weekly sabbath, or the annual sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread. The Pharisees held it as the annual day (meaning the day after, the wave sheaf offering, and the Passover 7 weeks after that, could be any day of the week, and the Sadducees held that it was the weekly sabbath, so that both days would always be on a Sunday.

The Pharisees were the ones Christ said had the right doctrines and practice. And todays Jews hold their Pentecost on any day of the week (Though at least some keep it as two consecutive days due to some other dispute as to when it falls).

I thought the SDA's held to the "always on a Sunday" view. Why is Bob arguing against that? I know SDA's hold the traditional Friday Crucifixion/Sunday Resurrection. Those who hold that the wave sheaf and Passover can fall on any day also hold the Wed. Crucifixion/sabbath sundown resurrection; and the wave sheaf day, and Passover would both have fallen on Thursday that year.

There is a point that if the wave sheaf day (representing God's acceptance of the harvest) and Christ's Resurrection (representing the newness of life), and the day of Pentecost (when the apostolic Church began) were on Sundays, that that would point to Sunday as the new Christian day.
Hence, why churches often applied to Sunday Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[lori4dogs]

Yeah! What is very interesting is that in Mark 13:35 Jesus describes the four watches of the night.

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

6 pm. to 9 pm = at even
9 pm. to 12 pm = at midnight
12 am to 3 am - cockcrowing
3 am. to 6 am - in the morning (Greek "proee"

The Greek term "proee" was understood as a technical term by Jesus and used so in this very passage for the fourth watch of the night that occurred between 3 a.m to 6 a.m. Jesus had come walking upon the water at the fourth watch (Mt. 14:25).

This is the word that the gospel writers use to define the time of his resurrection in Mark 16:9 before the sun had risen.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus' 'hour' is often referred to. The most obvious meaning is the hour of Jesus' arrest, Passion, and Crucifixion and is the meaning when John refers to Jesus' hour. But another and fascinating understanding can be drawn out, too.

The first 4 times Jesus himself speaks of His hour and that indicate that His hour has not yet come are these:

John 2:4 The wedding at Cana. Mary tells Jesus that they have no wine. Jesus asks her what that has to do with him and states, "My hour has not yet come." A logical understanding would be that to provide wine brings "His hour."

John 4:21-23 Jesus converses with the Samaritan woman at the well and tells her that "...the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. ...true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth." No animal sacrifice. A new type of worship.

John 5:25 Jesus says, "Amen, amen [meaning "Listen up! This is new!], I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." In that Hour, the Word will be proclaimed, the full revelation of the Word and the dead will be brought to life. Prophets will no longer be needed.

(Are you figuring it out yet? Wine. New worship. Word of God. This next should clinch it.)

John 12:23 Jesus answers a simple request - some Greek God-fearers would like to see Him - with a very long answer. "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Amen, amen, [there it is again] I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit..." What is the 'fruit' of a grain of wheat? Flour. BREAD!

So......... What HOUR has the best of wine, bread, the Word proclaimed that brings life to the dead, and is a new form of worship?

The MASS!!!

Hallelujah!

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." John 6:53-54

 

[Dr. Walter]

Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

He interprets this hour to be the hour of his betrayal into the hands of sinners - the hour of his death. The institution of the Lord's supper already was past.

The "mass" is something Christ would never institute as it is a complete repudiation of "the hour" Christ defines as pertaining to the cross. The mass is ungodly and heathen.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus' 'hour' is often referred to. The most obvious meaning is the hour of Jesus' arrest, Passion, and Crucifixion and is the meaning when John refers to Jesus' hour. But another and fascinating understanding can be drawn out, too.

The first 4 times Jesus himself speaks of His hour and that indicate that His hour has not yet come are these:

John 2:4 The wedding at Cana. Mary tells Jesus that they have no wine. Jesus asks her what that has to do with him and states, "My hour has not yet come." A logical understanding would be that to provide wine brings "His hour."

John 4:21-23 Jesus converses with the Samaritan woman at the well and tells her that "...the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. ...true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth." No animal sacrifice. A new type of worship.

John 5:25 Jesus says, "Amen, amen [meaning "Listen up! This is new!], I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." In that Hour, the Word will be proclaimed, the full revelation of the Word and the dead will be brought to life. Prophets will no longer be needed.

(Are you figuring it out yet? Wine. New worship. Word of God. This next should clinch it.)

John 12:23 Jesus answers a simple request - some Greek God-fearers would like to see Him - with a very long answer. "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Amen, amen, [there it is again] I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit..." What is the 'fruit' of a grain of wheat? Flour. BREAD!

So......... What HOUR has the best of wine, bread, the Word proclaimed that brings life to the dead, and is a new form of worship?

The MASS!!!

Hallelujah!

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." John 6:53-54

 

[Eric B]

I personally, don't see how it can be avoided that what the text is referring to is seven regular sabbaths regardless when you begin counting and the day after the seventh sabbath is Pentecost. This beginning point is actually determined by the wave offering as the first-fruits of harvest and so there had to be some room for first-fruits to be gathered and offered after the first sabbath. The gathering of the first-fruits may vary from year to year but it is offered the day after the first sabbath after Passover.

"Sabbaths" also was an expression meaning "weeks" (sabbath comes from "seven"), so it didn't necessarily literally mean after the weekly sabbth day. It says "seven sabbaths shall be complete"; meaning seven periods of seven days (which include the weekly sabbaths; but not necessarily end after the last one of the sabbath days).
They were to eat unleavened bread seven days, but they couldn't eat bread until the Firstfruits rite (v14), so that could not be the day after a weekly sabbath that could come anywhere inthe week; as late as toward the end of the seven days, some years.