The Fourth Republican Debate

[Use of Time]

He championed the one in 2013 and the attempted one in 2015. Boehner was able to steer off the latest one during his farewell tour.

My view is that Obama shut down the government in 2013 and then deliberately targeted his cuts where they would do the most damage and hurt the most people. and would have done so again in 2015.

Boehner was just too big a coward to let him do it. Cruz can't do it by himself. Only the president can, and did.

The President passing his capstone piece of legislation didn't shut down the Government. Whether or not it was a good one is another matter.

 

[HankD]

My opinion is that Marco Rubio will eventually come out ahead and be nominated as the "chosen one". He may have "birther" problems from the Dems but they probably won't get too far.

http://www.cafeconlecherepublicans.com/is-marco-rubio-a-natural-born-citizen/

IMO he missed an opportunity to give a good rebuttal to Paul's question "how can you be a conservative and want a trillion dollar defense budget"?

Possible answer : Because of all the other conservative work I will be doing (Iterate work items - i.e. deregulation, tax reform, etc), there will be ample funds to compensate for our survival, defense.

HankD

 

[carpro]

The President passing his capstone piece of legislation didn't shut down the Government. Whether or not it was a good one is another matter.

The president had a bill funding the govenment sent to him, or about to be, by a majority of both houses of congress.. He chose his ego over the welfare of the country and chose to shut down the government.
A single senator or congressman cannot shut down the givernment. Only a president can. This particular president is even willing to defund the military over whether or not the government should continue paying for the killing of babies.

It's no problem to find the real villian here, unless one is deliberately looking in the wrong places.

 

[carpro]

My opinion is that Marco Rubio will eventually come out ahead and be nominated as the "chosen one". He may have "birther" problems from the Dems but they probably won't get too far.



HankD

Rubio is, I believe , is another wolf in sheep's clothing. He's another big spending , big government republican who will sell out the country and his constituency on immigration. But he'll sound good doing it. Very articulate.

 

[Use of Time]

The president had a bill funding the govenment sent to him, or about to be, by a majority of both houses of congress.. He chose his ego over the welfare of the country and chose to shut down the government.
A single senator or congressman cannot shut down the givernment. Only a president can. This particular president is even willing to defund the military over whether or not the government should continue paying for the killing of babies.

It's no problem to find the real villian here, unless one is deliberately looking in the wrong places.

Even polls with the American public were not in favor of shutting down the Government with regard to the ACA. Cruz ignored this and plowed on anyway. The Republicans focused solely on the ACA and made that their battleground. They lost and there is substantial documentation on what that cost the Government as a whole. There were four separate polls conducted and all of them blamed Cruz and his cronies for the shutdown. Pew, Reuters, Huffpo and Wall Street Journal. So who exactly ignored the will of the American people?

The second threatened shutdown really split the Republicans as many saw the fallout and did not want to see the same scenario play out again.

 

[carpro]

Even polls with the American public were not in favor of shutting down the Government with regard to the ACA.
.

Polls were also against the passing of the ACA. But the president rammed it through and then shut down the government to keep a program the people never wanted in the first place.

Basically, polls don't make a good argument to protect a rogue president.

 

[Use of Time]

Are we still talking about the shutdown or the ACA? Because the ACA didn't split a party the way the shutdown did. A lot of Republicans learned the lesson from 2013 and saw what the public though of it which caused many to distance themselves from Cruz this go around. Ironically, the ACA is actually picking up steam in the polls this year as it starts to become the norm.

 

[InTheLight]

The president had a bill funding the govenment sent to him, or about to be, by a majority of both houses of congress..

Wrong. The Senate proposed a continuing spending resolution which Ted Cruz filibustered demanding that the ACA be defunded. The House had passed a continuing spending resolution which didn't include funding for the ACA. The Senate did not agree to it. Basically, there was never a bill sent to Obama from Congress because the Senate blocked the House version and Cruz (and others) blocked the Senate version.

It's no problem to find the real villian here, unless one is deliberately looking in the wrong places.

If you oppose ACA the villain was the Democratic controlled Senate which would not agree to conference the House bill which defunded the ACA. If you support the ACA the villain was the Republican controlled House because they sent a bill to the Senate that would defund ACA.

Obama was a villain only in the sense that he promised to veto any bill that defunded the ACA. Turns out there never was a bill sent to him by the deadline of Oct. 1st so the government shutdown.

 

[Zaac]

My opinion is that Marco Rubio will eventually come out ahead and be nominated as the "chosen one". He may have "birther" problems from the Dems but they probably won't get too far.

http://www.cafeconlecherepublicans.com/is-marco-rubio-a-natural-born-citizen/

IMO he missed an opportunity to give a good rebuttal to Paul's question "how can you be a conservative and want a trillion dollar defense budget"?

Possible answer : Because of all the other conservative work I will be doing (Iterate work items - i.e. deregulation, tax reform, etc), there will be ample funds to compensate for our survival, defense.

HankD

That's what I was thinking too. Carson will fall and so will Trump leaving an opening for Rubio or Cruz. Trump will get mad that he's not the center of attention and run on a third party ticket after saying he wouldn't because it will keep him in the news cycle through November of 2016. Because of his ego, Hillary will dance right into the Oval Office.

 

[carpro]

Wrong. The Senate proposed a continuing spending resolution which Ted Cruz filibustered demanding that the ACA be defunded. The House had passed a continuing spending resolution which didn't include funding for the ACA. The Senate did not agree to it. Basically, there was never a bill sent to Obama from Congress because the Senate blocked the House version and Cruz (and others) blocked the Senate version.

If you oppose ACA the villain was the Democratic controlled Senate which would not agree to conference the House bill which defunded the ACA. If you support the ACA the villain was the Republican controlled House because they sent a bill to the Senate that would defund ACA.

Obama was a villain only in the sense that he promised to veto any bill that defunded the ACA. Turns out there never was a bill sent to him by the deadline of Oct. 1st so the government shutdown.

Exactly. Because the president threatened to veto it and shut down the government. No veto threat, it passes. The government is not shut down.

Obama promised he would shut it down if it passed , so democrats shut it down before he got his chance. Either way, the president is responsible and Cruz was powerless to do anything about it.

Same song, just a different tune. The only single person with the power to shut down the government or defund the military in order to keep killing babies is none other than the president.

 

[HankD]

Rubio is, I believe , is another wolf in sheep's clothing. He's another big spending , big government republican who will sell out the country and his constituency on immigration. But he'll sound good doing it. Very articulate.

carpro is that a gut feeling or is it based soley on his immigration policies?

After checking his overall voting record he seems to be an overall conservative voter - a little wishy washy on immigration. Personally I don't favor blanket deportation either but then again I don't have a solution apart from amnesty.

Except for criminal immigrants, they must be deported and if any of their crime was committed in the US then they must definitely be deported or punished here.

A possible solution (don't know how practical it is) Mexico (or any other alien nation) must pay for the exodus back- if not - then the US will cut off their aid until the debt of moving millions of people back to Mexico (or wherever) is paid in full.

HankD

 

[carpro]

Are we still talking about the shutdown or the ACA? Because the ACA didn't split a party the way the shutdown did. A lot of Republicans learned the lesson from 2013 and saw what the public though of it which caused many to distance themselves from Cruz this go around. Ironically, the ACA is actually picking up steam in the polls this year as it starts to become the norm.

Yep. Gutless wonders, all. But Cruz didn't shut anything down. He doesn't have that kind of power.

Picking up steam with half the government funded exchanges going broke and premiums rising astronomically. Just great. Once again, polls are a matter of convenience to leftists.

The ACA was passed over the objections of a majority of the American people through lies and parliamentarian manipulations. I didn't see the left touting the polls then. Just tell another lie and move on.

The good part is the lies and manipulations didn't get past the American public and they threw the democrats out of Congress in record numbers. The bad part is that republicans are too cowardly to reign in a rogue president with the tools they have at their disposal, chiefly the power of the purse.

Done here.

 

[HankD]

That's what I was thinking too. Carson will fall and so will Trump leaving an opening for Rubio or Cruz. Trump will get mad that he's not the center of attention and run on a third party ticket after saying he wouldn't because it will keep him in the news cycle through November of 2016. Because of his ego, Hillary will dance right into the Oval Office.

I agree and in fact it may even happen if Trump doesn't have a tantrum but bows out all together.

Lots can happen in the interim.

HankD

 

[InTheLight]

Exactly. Because the president threatened to veto it and shut down the government. No veto threat, it passes. The government is not shut down.

Obama promised he would shut it down if it passed , so democrats shut it down before he got his chance. Either way, the president is responsible and Cruz was powerless to do anything about it.

Wrong. The Democrat controlled Senate was not going to pass anything that defunded the ACA. They weren't going to go to conference committee and reconcile with the House bill because it would have defunded the ACA. Obama's veto threat was just a way to reinforce the Senate's position.

 

[carpro]

carpro is that a gut feeling or is it based soley on his immigration policies?

After checking his overall voting record he seems to be an overall conservative voter - a little wishy washy on immigration. Personally I don't favor blanket deportation either but then again I don't have a solution apart from amnesty.

Except for criminal immigrants, they must be deported and if any of their crime was committed in the US then they must definitely be deported or punished here.

A possible solution (don't know how practical it is) Mexico (or any other alien nation) must pay for the exodus back- if not - then the US will cut off their aid until the debt of moving millions of people back to Mexico (or wherever) is paid in full.

HankD

More than just a feeling. He has folded on key issues and the republican "establishment' considers him their go to guy if Jeb is booted or quits.

He was on the Senate committee that ceded their treaty approval power to Obama concerning Iran. He voted to give up their authority.

Indications are that, when push comes to shove, he will always side with the "establishment" and against conservatives.
___________________________________________
"The unmistakable gaping hole in Rubio’s conservative record is his active and prominent voice for amnesty and comprehensive open borders. When judging a member’s work in the broader conservative cause, dissension on one issue would not taint their entire record. But in the case of Rubio and immigration, due to the importance of the issue and the fact that he carried the amnesty bill on his shoulders, even after his own promises were proven wrong, has severely strained his relationship with the grassroots. Conservatives feel as if Rubio didn’t just work across the aisle, but delivered the votes needed across the aisle for liberal Senator Chuck Schumer and the open borders movement against the center-right rule- of- law coalition. Aside for immigration, Rubio has a weak spot for some aspects of the populist fiscal agenda that are not inherently conservative. While his strong position against corporate welfare overlaps with the conservative agenda, parts of his anti-poverty agenda are not built upon the foundation of free market and limited government principles. He opposes the requisite downsizing of government in order to balance the budget. He supports keeping the costly Obamacare mandates on pre-existing conditions, and he has supported government intervention in hiring employees and incentivizing wage increases." - See more at:

https://www.conservativereview.com/members/marco-rubio/#sthash.HjftQDv9.dpuf

"Senator Marco Rubio, newly declared for president, sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Where he voted for what Mark Levin accurately describes as an agreement that has “turned (the Constitution) on its head.” - See more at:

https://www.conservativereview.com/...or-stand-tall-under-fire#sthash.TmR4W7ME.dpuf

 

[777]

LOL, well, I just want to see if this post sticks but it's always interesting to see others' take on what's going on in the GOP. You could say their opinions are irrelevant but I don't think their perceptions are.

On topic, the big debate last night:

Trump - surprisingly played the front-runner role well
Kaisach -desperate, running to the left of Jeb
Bush - flat, uninspiring, overshadowed by JK
Fiorina - repetitive, stilted, jockeying for a cabinet position
Rubio - smooth, a little over-rehearsed
Carson - seemed drugged at times
Paul - libertarian roots were showing, he perhaps Cruz won on points
Cruz - debates well but he could stumble in the general

Trump will be the nominee if things do not change, and by that I mean a huge swing in mood/ideology in this country within three months. I don't think Cruz and Rubio are out of it but they still have not to be able to catch fire and sustain it. I don't think Carson's heart is in it and he's going to falter and he, Carly and Rand are just staying in it for exposure - to sell books, to be VP and to run for re-elections to the Senate, respectively. John K and John Ellis are a dying breed of Republicans, compassionate conservatism is passe. Pop culture society leads to pop culture nominees, hello Trump.

 

[HankD]

More than just a feeling. He has folded on key issues and the republican "establishment' considers him their go to guy if Jeb is booted or quits.

He was on the Senate committee that ceded their treaty approval power to Obama concerning Iran. He voted to give up their authority.

Indications are that, when push comes to shove, he will always side with the "establishment" and against conservatives.
___________________________________________
"The unmistakable gaping hole in Rubio’s conservative record is his active and prominent voice for amnesty and comprehensive open borders. When judging a member’s work in the broader conservative cause, dissension on one issue would not taint their entire record. But in the case of Rubio and immigration, due to the importance of the issue and the fact that he carried the amnesty bill on his shoulders, even after his own promises were proven wrong, has severely strained his relationship with the grassroots. Conservatives feel as if Rubio didn’t just work across the aisle, but delivered the votes needed across the aisle for liberal Senator Chuck Schumer and the open borders movement against the center-right rule- of- law coalition. Aside for immigration, Rubio has a weak spot for some aspects of the populist fiscal agenda that are not inherently conservative. While his strong position against corporate welfare overlaps with the conservative agenda, parts of his anti-poverty agenda are not built upon the foundation of free market and limited government principles. He opposes the requisite downsizing of government in order to balance the budget. He supports keeping the costly Obamacare mandates on pre-existing conditions, and he has supported government intervention in hiring employees and incentivizing wage increases." - See more at:

https://www.conservativereview.com/members/marco-rubio/#sthash.HjftQDv9.dpuf

"Senator Marco Rubio, newly declared for president, sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Where he voted for what Mark Levin accurately describes as an agreement that has “turned (the Constitution) on its head.” - See more at:

https://www.conservativereview.com/...or-stand-tall-under-fire#sthash.TmR4W7ME.dpuf

OK I'm torn. However his rising popularity IMO is that his stand on amnesty is what is so attractive to the undecided. Again, I have a real problem with just packing up 11 million people (men, women and children) and herding them back to Mexico. And that apart from the humanitarian issue - the logistics and the cost.

However when our well being and existence was threatened by the Japanese in WWII we felt very little compassion for the men, women and children we disintegrated (close to 200,000) in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Someone said ... war is hell.

I only wish we had a Solomon among us to solve this illegal alien problem in a humanitarian way - I think Cruz said that though he is for deportation. He needs to spell out his plan IMO.

I still believe Rubio won the debate and will continue to grow in popularity because of his very strategic compromises probably designed to attract those indies on the left.

HankD

 

[carpro]

OK I'm torn. However his rising popularity IMO is that his stand on amnesty is what is so attractive to the undecided. Again, I have a real problem with just packing up 11 million people (men, women and children) and herding them back to Mexico. And that apart from the humanitarian issue - the logistics and the cost.



HankD

Polls show that if he takes the side of amnesty along with Hillary he will antagonize many more voters than he will alienate if he secures the borders and upholds the law. Guaranteeing her election

A Solomon might be nice if you want to rile all the Jew haters. What we really need is a president that simply upholds the law.

"There is no serious evidence of any positive results among Latino voters for those candidates who support Hillary’s Clinton’s views on immigration. But how much are Republicans losing among other voters for not drawing a sharp contrast on the issue? If they fail to move the needle on the 10% of the electorate (based on the 2012 composition of electorate) that is more supportive of open borders, how many voters from the remaining 90%, especially among Reagan Democrats and disenchanted voters, are they leaving on the table for not taking a strong pro-sovereignty position? Hillary Clinton has made it clear she is staking out her destiny on Obama’s radical anti-sovereignty, anti-American taxpayer position on immigration. Republicans who fail to draw a sharp contrast will do so at their own peril. By supporting amnesty, they will never outbid Hillary among the small share of voters whose top issue is support of amnesty. Yet, at the same time, they will dishearten a number of Republicans, Independents, and Reagan Democrats who oppose open borders. Putting the great policy arguments aside, there is no upside for nominating a candidate who is weak on immigration. -

See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/...outdo-the-queen-panderer#sthash.SdcLVAA1.dpuf

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Here's my take --

Rubio - clear winner of the debate; hit his key points; very likeable; good sparring with Paul and explained the need for a stronger military and his support of the expanded child tax credit

Trump - very bland, low on specifics and rude to the other candidates; also showed his lack of knowledge that the trade deal does not even include China

Bush - best debate so far, but stalled in the 2nd half; very good to response to Trump about America not being the world's policeman but needing to be the world's leader

Kaisach - made some good points - especially on the moral issue and logistics of deporting 11 million people, but lost it on the banking questions

Fiorina - a little too shrill, but always has her answers ready (does she ever take a breath?); heard a lot of the same from her though -- nothing new; loved the line that she too has met Putin, but just not for a TV show

Carson - very little specifics other than claiming the media lied; he closes his eyes when he speaks which totally throws me off

Paul - comes across as way too whiny; his isolationist views will move him off the podium soon; thought he lost the discussion with Rubio by a lot

Cruz - one of the best debaters in the field; probably came in second behind Rubio; however, he comes off as very unlikeable - he was probably the guy that screwed the curve for his high school trig exam; also his comments about the gold standard were a bit off

 

[kyredneck]

As someone who's been on the receiving end of the furloughs, I'd rather be furloughed myself than have my kids grow up in a nation strangled with debt.

A little late for that sentiment. It'll already take quite some time of extended austerity measures to get this 19 trillion debt down to a comprehensible level. I don't see that being initiated anytime soon especially among all these GOP hawks frothing for more war.