The Freewillers Shell Game part 1.

[rsr]

To me TULIP Philosophy is false Doctrine from Hell. That is how strong I feel about it.

I'm glad you're passionate. But the extent of your feelings is in no way related to whether the doctrine is true or false, and constant inflammatory language does nothing for your case - except to make it easier to dismiss.

Calvinism are allowed a free ride on forums. They have to be confronted. They don't like it and they can get rather UPSET.

I haven't noticed Calvinism being given a free ride here; seems there a number of vocal free-willers willing to take up the debate.

If they get in control as moderators you will get the boot. They can't stand any strong opposition.

So far as I know, no one has been given the boot for taking up for free will. Or for any position on TULIP, for that matter. For being uncivil, discourteous and rude - yes.

[quoteThe end results is Tulipitis a sin sick miss guided debilitating ailment. [/quote]

Words guaranteed to get you a dispassionate hearing.

But we have to love them and perhaps some will be converted to real Christianity and Biblical Truth. Only God can judge their should concerning salvation.

Indeed. As John Wesley said of George Whitefield:

Is there any other fruit of the grace of God with which he was eminently endowed, and the want of which among the children of God he frequently and passionately lamented? There is one, that is, catholic love; that sincere and tender affection which is due to all those who, we have reason to believe, are children of God by faith; in other words, all those, in every persuasion, who "fear God and work righteousness." He longed to see all who had "tasted of the good word," of a true catholic spirit; a word little understood, and still less experienced, by many who have it frequently in their mouth. Who is he that answers this character? Who is the man of a catholic spirit? One who loves as friends, as brethren in the Lord, as joint partakers of the present kingdom of heaven, and fellow heirs of His eternal kingdom, all, of whatever opinion, mode of worship, or congregation, who believe in the Lord Jesus; who love God and man; who, rejoicing to please and fearing to offend God, are careful to abstain from evil, and zealous of good works. He is a man of a truly catholic spirit, who bears all these continually upon his heart; who, having an unspeakable tenderness for their persons, and an earnest desire of their welfare, does not cease to commend them to God in prayer, as well as to plead their cause before men; who speaks comfortably to them, and labors, by all his words, to strengthen their hands in God. He assists them to the uttermost of his power, in all things, spiritual and temporal; he is ready to "spend and be spent" for them; yea, "to lay down his life for his brethren."

How sad it is to see them come to the end of their life and find out they are not elected and bust Hell wide open.

I suppose it will be so, but no sadder, I would think, than for Arminians, semi-Pelagians, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and those of any belief, sect or denomination who are damned.

Damnation, it seems to me, would be pretty lousy, no matter what brand of soteriology you held to on earth.

 

[Blammo]

Just thought I would post the OP one more time today.

any ideas how this works?

If God foreknows (as used by freewillers) before God predestined, this is hyper-Calvinism other then God is not in control. In this view, what God sees will happen, God must make happen, or what He saw was not really the end of things. God is limited and controlled by what man does. If God changes things in this view God would be changing what He foreknow would happen. If God did this changing, why did He not know about the change? God must do as He saw “done” in the future, or God did not really see the end.

You are assuming God did not involve Himself in what He foreknew. You think our view is that God had to see the future without His involvement, before He could know what He had to change? The extent that you will go to, in your arguments, so limits God it is fascinating.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are assuming God did not involve Himself in what He foreknew. You think our view is that God had to see the future without His involvement, before He could know what He had to change? The extent that you will go to, in your arguments, so limits God it is fascinating.

If God has His involvement in man...how far can God go with not hurting freewill?

This is where it gets good folks. Stay turned.

 

[Brother Bob]

You got blew out of the water on this shell James.

 

[Jarthur001]

You got blew out of the water on this shell James.

how so bob?
:smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, He foreknows who believes but the foreknow is for man and not God for God sees all and everlasting to everlasting.

Romans, chapter 11
1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

"3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

"4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

"5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(By Grace are ye saved through faith "believing") You must believe that I am He.
"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

"7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

"8": (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

"9": And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

"10": Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

"11": I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is your answer but I know you will not have it even though it is scripture.

 

[Blammo]

If God has His involvement in man...how far can God go with not hurting freewill?

This is where it gets good folks. Stay turned.

God can do whatever He wants to do. My free-will does not limit God. God gave me the ability to think, feel, reason, and choose. If I use those freedoms, that God gave me, in a wrong way, there are consequences.

-Can God influence me? Absolutely.
-Does my freedom to choose place God into subjection to me? No way!!!
-Could God cause me to have a heart attack at this very moment to accomplish something that we would never understand in this life? Absolutely?
-Would that violate my free-will? I can't imagine how.
-If I decided, exercising my free-will, I am going to walk up the road and stop a train with my bare hands, and I failed, does that mean I did not really have the ability to decide to stop the train?

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, He foreknows who believes but the foreknow is for man and not God for God sees all and everlasting to everlasting.

So...God did not know till God learn this by seeing, or did God know this before He saw?
Did God also know who would not believe? You guys seem to always leave this out.

Romans, chapter 11
1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

"3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

"4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Notice here as I use the word forknew as the freewillers use it.

God forknew Israel,...and in this case it is not based on believe...is it? As a matter of fact, the text says...they killed the prophets...digged down the altars...and still God did not cast AWAY his people. Where is the election by forseeing??? not here...is it??

how about "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men"? well...look who did this. God RESERVED to Himself. those that were reserved..did not bow down.

"5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

LOOK!!! I found it. Election is by grace...not because God foresaw ones believeing. Now how about that?? do you believe it???

(By Grace are ye saved through faith "believing") You must believe that I am He.

where does it say election by foreseeing?? not here bob.

"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

GRACE GRACE GRACE GRACE Praise GOD!!!

"7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

election because God foresaw? aaaaw no. Election of the ones they killed the prophets...by grace.

There is your answer but I know you will not have it even though it is scripture.

No no...Bob..I believe Gods word...do you??

Time to move those shells....i mean time to change the meaning again.

In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

God can do whatever He wants to do.

I agree. And God can elect who He wants...for His only pleasure...right?





Or no?????

 

[Blammo]

I agree. And God can elect who He wants...for His only pleasure...right?





Or no?????

Yes, like seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, like seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Thank you.

God indeed is in control. God chooses by grace not by foreseen faith, or else choosing is not needed.

Most would dodge this Blammo. That is all I have tonight. I got work to do.

Later...

In Christ..James

 

[rsr]

Will you look at the time? 20 pages already. And the discussion was so edifying and free of condescension and name calling ....