The Fruits of Calvinism

[doulous]

And my guess is that he "has no clue" either since that is the natural lot for all Calvinists concerning election and God's reasons for choosing the elect.

Jack, it seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are painting with a wide brush with your comments about Calvinists. Is it possible that the rhetoric is so hot that what each side is saying is just not registering?

 

[doulous]

And my guess is that he "has no clue" either since that is the natural lot for all Calvinists concerning election and God's reasons for choosing the elect.

Jack, it seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are painting with a wide brush with your comments about Calvinists. Is it possible that the rhetoric is so hot that what each side is saying is just not registering?

 

[JackRUS]

O.K. folks.

First off, it was Joseph that used the words "no clue." Not me. And I got my conclusion from taking to various Calvinists throughout the years.
And whatever asked:

I'm also curious why you want Calvinists to answer questions that the Bible does not answer.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter." Prov. 25:2

When Calvinists read Scripture through their Calvin sunglasses and horse blinders they don't see the whole council of God.

Here is a true biblical truth that is anathema to Calvinists:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." 1 Chron. 28:9

Why do you suppose that the Holy Spirit searches hearts? We need more clues. Or in this case, more Scripture.

Since we are saved by grace we should seek out why He gives some grace and not others.

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for
God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:" 1 Pet. 5:5-6

So then, humble yourself. Want more proof?

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be
merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he
that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men. In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

Why do you suppose that Jesus told this story? Is their any clear teaching on this from the OT to go by? Doesn't it say in Rom. 15:4 that the OT was written so that we might have hope?

"For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that
is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." Isa. 66:2

So there you have it have it guys. Just like the publican, one that fears God at His word (that means that you believe His Word concerning judgement by the book or by OT prophet), and is humbly sorry (contrite) for your sins. (see also Ps. 34:18)

These will receive grace and more light concerning the Lord and His glorious Gospel.

Note: "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Isa. 55:7

See if this verses fits any of your TULIP:

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they
did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." Isa. 66:4

There are many more examples like this from OT Scripture. I am amazed that Calvinists 'choose' to ignore them.

 

[doulous]

Here is a true biblical truth that is anathema to Calvinists:

Let's see if this statement holds up under scrutiny.

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." 1 Chron. 28:9

Why do you suppose that the Holy Spirit searches hearts?

In context David is informing Israel that his son (Solomon) would build the temple. In verse 9 David charges his son to serve the Lord with a "willing mind." He informs him that the Lord, "searcheth all hearts, and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts." In reviewing this passage I cannot see where a Reformed Christian would have a problem with it. As diligent fathers (whether Reformed or Free will), wouldn't we charge our children in a similar way? We would instruct them to serve the Lord and obey Him in all things. As we raise them we would certainly teach them about God's omniscience, that He searches the thoughts and intentions of the heart (1 Cor. 2:10).

This passage does not impune the Reformed view of the sovereignty of God in any way. If nothing else it reinforces it by the work of God in knowing the hearts and imaginations of all.

Since we are saved by grace we should seek out why He gives some grace and not others.

We certainly should. I concur.

1 Peter 5:5-6 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

This passage does not address salvific grace, but the command for youner (less experienced) men to be subject to their elders. The term, "gives grace to the humble" simply means that God favors the humble in heart. You can see this in verse 6 when Peter writes that God will exalt the humble, by His mighty hand, at the proper time. A humble person is yieled to God while a proud person is not. So this passage does not teach that God gives some more grace than others. It actually is a verse to support sanctification.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be
merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he
that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men. In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

Jack, you're losing me a bit here. How did the publican go down to his house justified? It was because of one of two choices: A) His confession and true piety earned him God's mercy -or- B) His confession and true piety was evidence that He had already experienced God's mercy and grace. Evidence within the text seems to point to the latter. Because the publican was already a child of God he was broken over his sin and pleaded with God for mercy.

You make the accusation that, "according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men." Actually God did care about one of the "totally depraved men." The text indicates that the publican was already justified salvifically. The Pharisee was still dead in his sins.

Why do you suppose that Jesus told this story?

Jack, Luke tells us why.

Luke 18:9 9 And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:

Jesus told the parable of the Pharisee and the publican in order to expose the self-righteousness of the Pharisees.

Is their any clear teaching on this from the OT to go by?

Yes. Jesus once said, Matthew 23:23 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Jesus was telling them that if they knew the Law they would have understood the need for justice, mercy and faithfulness. Jesus was telling them that these were the most important ("weightier") provisions of the Law. So we see there is a clear teaching of the Old Testament to go by.

Doesn't it say in Rom. 15:4 that the OT was written so that we might have hope?

Yes. But "hope" within context of what Paul was writing about: Romans 15:1-4 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. 2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached Thee fell upon Me." 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. This passage is talking about encouraging those (believers) who are "without strength" and not just please ourselves. It is about putting the needs of others ahead of ourselves, just as Paul wrote in this passage: Philippians 2:3-4 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. I do not see where your reference to Romans 15:4 has a negative impact on Reformed theology.

Jack, the last passage you quote is Isaiah 66:2 2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Are you suggesting that the Lord chooses those who are "humble and contrite of spirit."? If so, I concur, but not in the same way. The sinner becomes "humble and contrite" by passing from death to life (Ephesians 2:4,5). The work of passing from death to life is all of God with no participation by man. But when the passing from death to life takes place (regeneration), then and only then is man able to be "humble and contrite."

There are many more examples like this from OT Scripture. I am amazed that Calvinists 'choose' to ignore them.

Jack, have I ignored "them"? I answered them, not to your satisfaction, but I answered them. You're "amazed that Calvinists 'choose' to ignore them." I'm amazed that you quote verses seemingly without knowledge of the context and use them to support your point.

Jack - please notice that I disagreed with you without one personal attack or insult. Shouldn't we all disagree in like manner?

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by JackRUS:

Did not God choose all of Israel in the OT as His elect? Kindly explain to me exactly then why He chose to save only some of these folks and blind the others if they are all elect?

Did not God choose all of Israel in the OT as His elect?
Choose as His elect as in salvation? No.

The nation was choose for God to work though. This was how God choose to reveal Himself to mankind. The election of Israel was not to salvation, but rather blessings. He blessed them the Law and the Prophets, and he gave them the birth line which Christ would come. Notice even in the choosen nation God did not save all. Notice also, Israel was only one nation out of many nations.

In the end Salvation will come to Israel as ALL believe (Rev). This is only part of the election of blessing.

The Bible clearly teaches God can choose He wills.

Jack post....
Kindly explain to me exactly then why He chose to save only some of these folks and blind the others if they are all elect?

James...
The blinding comes in the day of grace and this is when the blessings of the Lord are put on hold. Since this time we see no more prophets or any other great blessings of God in the nation God choose to bless. But also, we read in Heb and Rev , that the revealing of God is done. Man has no need of any other revealing to understand who God is. God then begins to work with other nations of the world.


In Christ ...James

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Martin.
Then tell me exactly why God draws some and not others, and why does the Father give Jesus some folks but not others? With Scripture please since you know the "clear teaching of Scripture".

==I don't have to tell you that because I am not God. God, and God alone, knows why He chooses some and not others. What does the Scriptures say?

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" Rom 11:33-34

Now it is clear that the Father does not give "all men" to Jesus.

Jesus said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" Jn 6:37a

"You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life" Jn 17:2

If you believe that God the Father gave "all men" to Jesus than you believe in universalism. Why? Notice what Jesus said..."ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me". All of those the Father has given Jesus will come to Jesus and recieve eternal life from Jesus (Jn 10:26-27, 17:2). Since not all are saved (Rev 21:8, etc) then it must be concluded that God has not given all men to Jesus. Therefore universalism is false as is the idea that God gave all men to Jesus. God the Father gave certain people to Jesus.

His giving them to Jesus (the Son) had NOTHING to do with them. It is all about God's grace and purposes (Eph 1:1-14). It is not based on works it is based on God's grace (Eph 2:8-9).

I think John 6 is pretty clear on this matter, don't you?

Martin.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Thanks Joseph.
I'll wait for Martin to answer before I do.

And my guess is that he "has no clue" either since that is the natural lot for all Calvinists concerning election and God's reasons for choosing the elect.

==If one sticks with Scripture one is confined by Scripture. I am not free to "invent" my own theology. As Luther said, "my conscience is captive to the Word of God". If the Bible teaches that God chooses some for salvation then that is what I am forced to accept and believe. Why? Because Scripture is the Word of God. Proper doctrine comes from Scripture ALONE.

Now the Bible does not tell us WHY God would choose some and not others. However it does make one thing very clear...it is not by works but by grace.

For example in Romans 9 where the topic of election is being discussed Paul makes it clear that the election of God (between Jacob and Esau) was not based on works but on God's plan and grace:

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls" Rom 9:11

Notice that God's choice between Jacob and Esau was based on His choice and nothing more. God just chose to choose Jacob and not Esau (Rom 9:13). And neither Esau, nor Judas, nor any other non-elect person, can question or debate the purposes of God for God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Rom 9:15, Ex 33:19). No human has the right, the wisdom, nor the holiness to question the plan, purposes, grace, or choices of God (Rom 9:19-24).

So if you are asking me to go beyond what Scripture says I am not willing to do so. If you feel free to go beyond Scripture that is your issue, not mine. I, however, will not go beyond the clear teaching of Scripture (Lord willing).

Martin.

 

[whatever]

Hi Jack,

But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men. In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

That's not Calvinism you're describing there. No wonder you are so full of anger. It would not be difficult for you to find out what Calvinists actually believe about the Pharisee and the Publican. In fact, I could lay it out for you if you want. But I don't want to take the time to do it unless you really want to know.

 

[JackRUS]

doulous
You asked:

Jack, you're losing me a bit here. How did the publican go down to his house justified? It was because of one of two choices: A) His confession and true piety earned him God's mercy -or- B) His confession and true piety was evidence that He had already experienced God's mercy and grace. Evidence within the text seems to point to the latter. Because the publican was already a child of God he was broken over his sin and pleaded with God for mercy."

If the publican was alreaady saved (justified), why did Jesus say that he went to his house justified? According to you he was justified when he left his house in the morning. I disagree.

And I would argue that the term "hope" in Rom. 15:4 means the confidence of salvation.

You closed with:

Jack, the last passage you quote is Isaiah 66:2 2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Are you suggesting that the Lord chooses those who are "humble and contrite of spirit."? If so, I concur, but not in the same way. The sinner becomes "humble and contrite" by passing from death to life (Ephesians 2:4,5). The work of passing from death to life is all of God with no participation by man. But when the passing from death to life takes place (regeneration), then and only then is man able to be "humble and contrite."

Of course I would argue that one believes and then is saved, just as the Lord said in John 6:47. I you believe you "shall have" (not "already have") eternal life.

Jarthur001 wrote:

Did not God choose all of Israel in the OT as His elect?
Choose as His elect as in salvation? No.

I agree, but that does not preclude the fact that this was exactly what God wanted for them. He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9). And as Jesus said:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

So then, Jesus wanted them all to be saved, but by an act of their own free will they would not believe.

And I would argue that God blinded Israel because of their own stubborness in not choosing to believe. And Scripture would concur.

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Why would God punish them for not believing if it was not in their power to do so? Wouldn't they have already been broken off according to Calvinism?

Now Martin says:

If you believe that God the Father gave "all men" to Jesus than you believe in universalism.

Who said that? Certainly not me.

I an merely arguing that salvation is open to all. Only when God makes the dynamic choice to save (Rom. 9:15) does the Father give the one to Christ. And of course the one area that I am in agreement with Calvin is the area of the eternity security of the saints.

And you wrote:

Notice that God's choice between Jacob and Esau was based on His choice and nothing more. God just chose to choose Jacob and not Esau (Rom 9:13). And neither Esau, nor Judas, nor any other non-elect person, can question or debate the purposes of God for God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Rom 9:15, Ex 33:19). No human has the right, the wisdom, nor the holiness to question the plan, purposes, grace, or choices of God (Rom 9:19-24).

But isn't that exactly Calvinists do? They say that God chooses for no reason. The whole of the OT has God angry with people that you folks say are totally depraved without any ability to make any kind of decision to obey God.

If only God had Calvin's supreme wisdom it would have saved Him a lot of grief and also would have saved the lives of a lot of prophets that were slain that He sent to the People of Israel.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by whatever:
Hi Jack, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men. In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

That's not Calvinism you're describing there. No wonder you are so full of anger. It would not be difficult for you to find out what Calvinists actually believe about the Pharisee and the Publican. In fact, I could lay it out for you if you want. But I don't want to take the time to do it unless you really want to know. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't know my heart, and case you want to know, I am allowed to hate Calvininsm. God's Word says so.

"Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way." Ps. 119:104

And I don't hate Calvinists (1 John 3:14), I only feel sorry for you since Mr. Calvin is become your obsession.

And would I be correct in saying that you hate me and the Arminians here since you argue against our theology? Of course not. So why do that to me?

 

[doulous]

And I don't hate Calvinists (1 John 3:14), I only feel sorry for you since Mr. Calvin is become your obsession.

Jack, when I embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace (1998), I did so based on a study of the book of Romans. Up until then I had never read any work of John Calvin, Martin Luther or Augustine. I am not obsessed with John Calvin. You'll hardly ever see me quote his works. I base my view of election and predestination from the scriptures. I only live with the term "Calvinist" because it has been thrust upon me.

 

[webdog]

Jack, when I embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace (1998), I did so based on a study of the book of Romans.

What about the other 65 books?

Up until then I had never read any work of John Calvin, Martin Luther or Augustine.

Are you saying you were saved as a calvinist? Prior to 1998 did you either not read the book of Romans, or were not saved?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
Hi Jack, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men. In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

That's not Calvinism you're describing there. No wonder you are so full of anger. It would not be difficult for you to find out what Calvinists actually believe about the Pharisee and the Publican. In fact, I could lay it out for you if you want. But I don't want to take the time to do it unless you really want to know. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't know my heart, and case you want to know, I am allowed to hate Calvininsm. God's Word says so.

"Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way." Ps. 119:104

And I don't hate Calvinists (1 John 3:14), I only feel sorry for you since Mr. Calvin is become your obsession.

And would I be correct in saying that you hate me and the Arminians here since you argue against our theology? Of course not. So why do that to me? </font>[/QUOTE]Would you please show me where I said anything about hate? Pretty please? You are correct that I don't know your heart, but I do know a rant when I see one.

My obsession is not with Mr. Calvin, it is with the God Who saves His people.

My offer still stands, by the way. If you want to find out what Calvinists actually believe about the Pharisee and the Publican let me know and I will gladly tell you.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jack, when I embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace (1998), I did so based on a study of the book of Romans.

What about the other 65 books?

Up until then I had never read any work of John Calvin, Martin Luther or Augustine.

Are you saying you were saved as a calvinist? Prior to 1998 did you either not read the book of Romans, or were not saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Romans was the catalyst for me. It started an avalanche in my "re-understanding" of the scriptures in light of God's sovereignty.

I have never said (nor do I believe) that one must be a Calvinist in order to be saved. I was saved in 1979. I do believe there are depths of the free will position (historical Arminiansim) that are not Christian, but are almost impossible to find in this age.

 

[Martin]

JackRUS:

You said:

I an merely arguing that salvation is open to all. Only when God makes the dynamic choice to save (Rom. 9:15) does the Father give the one to Christ.

==There is no Scriptural support for that statement (at least not the way I am understanding your statement...). The Bible teaches that God the Father gives a person to the Son before the person comes to the Son (Jn 6:37,44, 10:26-27, 17:2). In fact Paul said that foreknew and predestined believers before they were called (agreeing with Jesus in John 6).

______________________________________

You said:

But isn't that exactly Calvinists do? They say that God chooses for no reason.

==I am not aware of any Calvinist that says that "God chooses for no reason". In fact the opposite is true. God's choice is based on His grace, will, and purpose (Eph 1:1-15, etc). God's grace, will, and purpose are certainly with reason (though we may not understand all the time).

________________________________________

You said:

The whole of the OT has God angry with people that you folks say are totally depraved without any ability to make any kind of decision to obey God.

==First the Bible says that the lost man is an enemy of God, dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3). Secondly God holds people accountable for their behavior and their rejection of Christ. Look at Judas as a good example. His role was well known to God, and it was part of Biblical prophecy (Jn 6:67-71, 13:10-11, etc) yet Judas is judged for his behavior (Matt 26:24). God is perfectly right in holding people accountable and judging them for their behavior and their rejection of Christ (Rom 9:19-24). Election does not do away with people's accountability to God.

_________________________________________

You said:

If only God had Calvin's supreme wisdom it would have saved Him a lot of grief and also would have saved the lives of a lot of prophets that were slain that He sent to the People of Israel.

==I am not sure how that comment represents mature theological discussion, nor how that kind of comment represents a good understanding of the issues involved in the discussion itself. Btw I could not help but to notice how many of my points you did not respond to.

Martin.

 

[Martin]

JackRUS:

And I don't hate Calvinists (1 John 3:14), I only feel sorry for you since Mr. Calvin is become your obsession.

==For your information the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word is my obsession. That is why I believe what the Bible says about depravity, election, and eternal security. I don't believe these things because I got up one day and said, "O, that sounds nice". Not at all. My position has come from many years of study of God's Holy Word and prayer. I have never read any book by John Calvin. If I was obsessed with Calvin, as you claim that all Calvinists are, then surely I would have read something he wrote? Yet I read God's Word every day.

Just a note.

Martin.

 

[Martin]

JackRUS:

One more point.

You said:
"The whole of the OT has God angry with people that you folks say are totally depraved "

==Did you know that Jacob Arminius believe in Total Depravity? Yes he did. Arminius was, after all, a man who was "reformed". Sure he had differences with what we would call "Calvinists" but he was reformed.

Arminius said:
"In this state [man's fallen condition], the Free Will of man toward the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assited by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine Grace: For Christ has said, "Without Me ye can do nothing"...."Christ does not say, Without Me ye can do but little; neither does He say, Without Me ye cannot do any arduous thing, nor Without Me ye can do it with difficulty: But He says, Without Me ye can do nothing! Nord does he say, Without Me ye cannot complete anything; but Without Me ye can do nothing!" -Disputation 11.

So Total Depravity is not only Calvinistic, it is Arminian as well. It is common to all who are reformed.

Martin.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Martin:
JackRUS:

One more point.

You said:
"The whole of the OT has God angry with people that you folks say are totally depraved "

==Did you know that Jacob Arminius believe in Total Depravity? Yes he did. Arminius was, after all, a man who was "reformed". Sure he had differences with what we would call "Calvinists" but he was reformed.

Arminius said:
"In this state [man's fallen condition], the Free Will of man toward the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assited by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine Grace: For Christ has said, "Without Me ye can do nothing"...."Christ does not say, Without Me ye can do but little; neither does He say, Without Me ye cannot do any arduous thing, nor Without Me ye can do it with difficulty: But He says, Without Me ye can do nothing! Nord does he say, Without Me ye cannot complete anything; but Without Me ye can do nothing!" -Disputation 11.

So Total Depravity is not only Calvinistic, it is Arminian as well. It is common to all who are reformed.

Martin.

Martin, you would call Ariminus "Reformed"? I believe the Synod of Dordt would dispute that.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by JackRUS:

..... but that does not preclude the fact that this was exactly what God wanted for them. He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9).

Yes...we must read all of the Bible...for it will all work together.

If those texts,…."The Lord is . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9)

"I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live" (Ezek. 33:11)

If..they are meant to read in their strictest sense, then no one will be damned now would they?

For God indeed has the power, if He wills...
as these verse do say...(he is not willing)..

He has the power to save all of mankind...if this was what was meant in these passages. Would you not agree?

But here's the right meaning..that lines up with other passages in the Bible..and also as it turns out...fits Calvinism.

God takes no pleasure in the death of sinners, ….as in delighting simply in their death,…but he delights to magnify his justice, by enforcing the punishment which their sin nature and state of unbelief deserve.

As a righteous judge who takes no pleasure in condemning a criminal…but WILL justly command him to hell, that Gods law and justice may be satisfied…even though it be in his power to pardoned the sinner if He so wishes.

A Calvinist is a Calvinist only because the Bible supports it. You need to drop your anger and get into the Word. If you drop you man made logic, it may be easier to see Gods plan.


In Christ...James

 

[epistemaniac]

Jack, you said

There are many more examples like this from OT Scripture. I am amazed that Calvinists 'choose' to ignore them.

Lie. Just because a Calvinist interprets this differently, it does not follow that they ignore them. Do you want me to quote some Calvinists to prove that you lied? Sure then... be glad to... and you know what, I only have to cite one in order to prove that you lied...
Gill "Isa 66:4 - I also will choose their delusions,.... Suffer them to approve and make choice of such persons that should delude and deceive them; as the Scribes and Pharisees, who were wolves in sheep's clothing, and through their appearance of sanctity deceived many, and by their long prayers devoured widows' houses; and as these false prophets, so likewise false Christs, many of which arose after the true Messiah was come, and was rejected by them, whom they embraced, and, by whom they were deluded and ruined, Mat_7:15.

and will bring their fears upon them; the things they feared; such as the sword, famine, and pestilence; and especially the Romans, who, they feared, would come and take away their place and nation, Joh_11:48,

because, when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear; that is, when Christ called unto the Jews, in the external ministry of the word, to come and hear him, they refused to come, nor would they suffer others to answer to this call, and hear him, and attend on his ministry; which rejection of him and his Gospel was the cause of their ruin:

but they did evil before mine eyes; openly and publicly to his face; blasphemed and contradicted his word, and despised his ordinances: and chose that in which I delighted not; their oral law, their legal sacrifices, and their own self-righteousness, as well as their immoralities."
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but, as an added bonus, for your reading pleasure, here are a few more proofs that you lied....

Calvin "4. I also will choose their delusions. 4 The Prophet means that the Jews gain nothing by holding out various and plausible pretences and by searching for excuses; because God does not care for the cunning or fine speeches of men. And indeed it is not proper to measure God by our own capacity, and we ought not to depend on human judgment; but it is our duty to judge of the works of God from his word. I will choose; that is, "I will scatter the clouds which they endeavor to spread over themselves, so that their delusions shall be manifest and visible to all; for now they appear to be hidden, but one day they shall be dragged forth to public view." The meaning may be thus summed up. "Because the Jews have indulged so freely in sinning that everything which they chose was preferred by them to the command ments of God, so also, in his turn, God will lay open their delusions at his pleasure."

And will bring upon them their terror. 5 Under the word "terror" he repeats the same thing, according to the custom of Hebrew writers. "I will cause them to know that they have fallen into a mistake, and that the terrors which they indulged shall fall on their own heads. 6 Thus their excuses or hypocritical pretences will be of no avail for confounding truth and falsehood and veiling superstitions; because the Lord will clearly distinguish between them.

Because I called. The Prophet again condemns the Jews for obstinacy, in not having suffered the Lord to correct them. This is the only remedy that remains for correcting our vices, that we hear the Lord speaking, when he endeavors to bring us back into the right way; but when we sear and harden our hearts, it is the worst of all evils. Whenever therefore men prefer their own inventions to the ordinances and commandments of God, they openly despise God, to whose will they ought to have yielded. This is especially the case when there is added such obstinate hardness of heart as shuts the door against holy warnings, and it is vain for them to allege that they cannot displease God by doing that which they undertake for the purpose of worshipping him; for all that men, by neglecting the word, choose and follow, the Lord rejects and abhors.

Before mine eyes. He repeats what he had formerly said, that the Jews sinned in the sight of God, as if they had resolved to provoke him to anger. At length he adds their manner of doing so, that, with perverse desire, they sought what God had forbidden; nor is it without good reason that he so frequently censures the wicked insolence of men, in defrauding God of his right, by treating contemptuously what he approves."
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JFB "Isa 66:4 - delusions-- (2Th_2:11), answering to "their own ways" (Isa_66:3; so Pro_1:31). However, the Hebrew means rather "vexations," "calamities," which also the parallelism to "fears" requires; "choose their calamities" means, "choose the calamities which they thought to escape by their own ways."

their fears--the things they feared, to avert which their idolatrous "abominations" (Isa_66:3) were practised.

I called . . . none . . . answer--(See on Isa_65:12; Isa_65:24; Jer_7:13).

did . . . chose--not only did the evil deed, but did it deliberately as a matter of choice (Rom_1:32). "They chose that in which I delighted not"; therefore, "I will choose" that in which they delight not, the "calamities" and "fears" which they were most anxious to avert.

before mine eyes--(See on Isa_65:3)."

etc etc

So I urge you Jack, stop lying about Calvinists, it only makes your own position suspect, for if you have to resort to lies to discredit others, then what does this say about your own beliefs and upon what they are founded?

But according to Calvinism God should not have cared one hoot about the hearts of these two "totally depraved" men.

Lie. Prove it by quoting a single reputable Calvinistic exegete who says this. Calvinists believe that God loved the hearts of His bride so much that He gave His only begotten son so that through Him, they may be saved.

In fact if the Pharisee had already been capriciously chosen on God's list it would have been him and not the publican that received grace. And for no good reason of course.

Lie. Calvinism does not teach that God chooses capriciously. Prove it by citing one single Calvinistic author who believes this and teaches it to others. Your interpretation of Calvinism does not equal Calvinism itself. All it represents is either a very poor understanding of the position you so want to refute, or, it represents your intentionally misrepresenting Calvinism in order to maliciously malign it, thus seeking to elevate your views by lying about other's views.

"For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that
is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." Isa. 66:2

Calvinism teaches that the one who is looking to God in a contrite spirit is one of the elect, for it is plainly the case that not everyone goes to God in this way. The question is, not if they have a contrite heart, everyone agrees that such a heart is necessary. Rather the question is, how did that person, a fallen wicked sinner, one who is at enmity with God, one who is dead in their trespasses and sins, ever come to have this kind of heart? Did they pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, did they receive grace in the prevenient (Arminian) sense, or in the Calvinistic sense, that by particular regeneration and individual election, that causies a person to be "born from above", born of the spirit and not the flesh, for the flesh profits nothing, certainly not salvation. Thus the answer to the question is not provided by the proof text, the Arminian scheme is assumed, and read through Arminian glasses, but this just begs the question, as well as creating a straw man for the other sides view.

So the bottom line is this, when looking at this verse ["I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they
did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." Isa. 66:4] .... we see that it fits in exactly with the Calvinistic view, from within "TULIP" if you will. For we see the Lord sovereignly and actually engaging in choosing the very delusions of the haughty person, and bringing the fears upon those who do not answer Him! This is what the Lord does for all those who are not His! He chooses their delusions.... we see this same teaching in Paul who says that the god of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers.... and the reason Jesus taught in parables;
Mat 13:13-14 esv This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
(14) Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive."

And I would argue that God blinded Israel because of their own stubborness in not choosing to believe. And Scripture would concur.
blessings,

This is backwards. God blinded them initially by allowing the natural consequences of Adam's fall to effect them such that they were blind to the things of God. People always start out (are born) this way, blind. That is, unless you happen to be denying the Fall and that it effects everyone's will.

If you affirm the Fall, then we can move on to saying that God not only made Adam our representative such that his sin affected the whole human race, He further hardens people's (Israel's) hearts much as He hardened the Pharaoh.

Many say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but this does not square with the biblical account. First, before Moses ever returns to Egypt to face Pharaoh, God tells him (Moses) that he will harden Pharaoh;
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

The Lord hardens Pharaoh for a reason,
Exo 7:3 csb But I will cause Pharaoh to be stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt."

just like he hardens Israel and any one else He chooses to harden, and He hardens them so that their guilt may be increased.

Isa 6:9-13 csb And he said, "Yes, go. But tell my people this: 'You will hear my words, but you will not understand. You will see what I do, but you will not perceive its meaning.' (10) Harden the hearts of these people. Close their ears, and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn to me for healing." (11) Then I said, "Lord, how long must I do this?"And he replied, "Until their cities are destroyed, with no one left in them. Until their houses are deserted and the whole country is an utter wasteland. (12) Do not stop until the LORD has sent everyone away to distant lands and the entire land of Israel lies deserted. (13) Even if only a tenth – a remnant – survive, it will be invaded again and burned. Israel will remain a stump, like a tree that is cut down, but the stump will be a holy seed that will grow again."

Mar 4:11-12 csb He answered them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been granted to you, but to those outside, everything comes in parables (12) so that they may look and look, yet not perceive; they may listen and listen, yet not understand; otherwise, they might turn back--and be forgiven."

Joh 9:39 csb Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, in order that those who do not see may see and those who do see may become blind."

Joh 12:38-40 csb But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? (39) This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: (40) He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them.

2Co 2:15-16 csb For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. (16) To some we are a scent of death leading to death, but to others, a scent of life leading to life. And who is competent for this?"

blessings,
Ken