The Function of the Law in the New Covenant..pt2

[kyredneck]

The Ten Commandments instilled in Adam.....broken and damaged by the fall, nevertheless still there.

And this is your justification for gomming up Romans 2:13-15 and destroying the continuity of the text?

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

This law was something that non-Jews didn't have to begin with. They weren't hearers of it, they had never had it before it was written on their hearts, and they were JUSTIFIED by doing it - the doers of the law shall be justified

...that theme being reiterated here:


25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.

,,,here:

26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?

...and here:

27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

This is no 'moral law' that every human ever born has instilled in them. This is God fulfilling His promise to write His law in their hearts.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except it's moral to steal your neighbor's gun who is about to kill his wife. You don't get it brother.

So God views some sins as "little white lies"

 

[JonShaff]

So God views some sins as "little white lies"

Bro, you don't get it and i did not say that.

Morality is a construct of man. God's nature and His Laws are Righteous and Just.

 

[kyredneck]

The Ten Commandments instilled in Adam.....broken and damaged by the fall, nevertheless still there.
God in regeneration begins to restore the image in redeemed man......

...and you people come to conclude all this from man being made in God's image? What a stretch.

 

[Iconoclast]

1 Thes. 4:9
Now about your love for one another we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.

Yes, i will wait for you to Retract your statement. and i will not continue this discussion until you do.

Here is the first part;
1 Thessalonians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

 

[Yeshua1]

Bro, you don't get it and i did not say that.

Morality is a construct of man. God's nature and His Laws are Righteous and Just.

What is Moral? What God describes to us it is!

 

[Iconoclast]

...and you people come to conclude all this from man being made in God's image? What a stretch.

read eph4...tell me what is being described in terms of law keeping kyred...no stretch, Good bible however.....we are being conformed to the Image of the Son....
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[JonShaff]

What is Moral? What God describes to us it is!

No, God describes Holiness and Righteousness and Godliness. Man constructs morality. It's not that hard to understand bro.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, God describes Holiness and Righteousness and Godliness. Man constructs morality. It's not that hard to understand bro.

How do we decide the moral thing to do?

 

[JonShaff]

I said....

God shows you how to live. The Spirit Shows you how to Live. The Entirety of the Word of God shows you how to live. Not simply 10 commands (although they are good, so do not misunderstand me).

You said....

You are shown nothing outside of scriptural guidance;
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Then i said

1 Thes. 4:9
Now about your love for one another we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.

Yes, i will wait for you to Retract your statement. and i will not continue this discussion until you do.

You said I'm "Shown nothing outside of Scriptural guidance"

But God teaches us to love because He has "Shed abroad HIS love in our Hearts by the Spirit"...our new Nature is to love...

So please confirm that so we can move on.

 

[kyredneck]

read eph4...tell me what is being described in terms of law keeping kyred...no stretch, Good bible however.....we are being conformed to the Image of the Son....
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

...and this makes 'the law' in Romans 2 to be 'a universal moral code' how?

 

[JonShaff]

All law comes from the 10 commandments in one way, shape, or the other.

I'll one-up you on this--Love is the Standard, and Law is to reveal when we have "broken" or have "gone against" that standard.

 

[JonShaff]

How do we decide the moral thing to do?

If you knew your neighbor was going to shoot up his family, is it ok to steal his gun from him?

 

[JonShaff]

How do we decide the moral thing to do?

you realize the pharisees had the same conversations with Jesus, right?

Mark 3:4
Then he turned to his critics and asked, "Does the law permit good deeds on the Sabbath, or is it a day for doing evil? Is this a day to save life or to destroy it?" But they wouldn't answer him.

The law was a deterrent for doing evil.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you knew your neighbor was going to shoot up his family, is it ok to steal his gun from him?

Its still a sin to do that, just a lesser one that him using that to murder his wife with!

 

[Yeshua1]

you realize the pharisees had the same conversations with Jesus, right?

Mark 3:4
Then he turned to his critics and asked, "Does the law permit good deeds on the Sabbath, or is it a day for doing evil? Is this a day to save life or to destroy it?" But they wouldn't answer him.

The law is good and perfect, just not the way to get saved by, correct?

 

[JonShaff]

The law is good and perfect, just not the way to get saved by, correct?

Of course the Law is Good and perfect!

But remember...Romans 10:4--For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[JonShaff]

Its still a sin to do that, just a lesser one that him using that to murder his wife with!

NO!

Mark 3:4

You don't get it, brother!

Was it a sin for David to eat the Shew Bread!? He broke the Law didn't he?!

 

[JonShaff]

The Lord Jesus Uses the story of David eating the Shew Bread to help us understand the intent of the Law.

David was about to die of hunger. He ate something forbidden by the Law--but did he sin?

The law was to reveal the WICKED INTENTIONS of someone desiring their own Glory--selfishness--which is the antithesis of love.

You cannot legislate practical righteousness--you still can't!

Christ living Through Us is the Only way for us to live According to God's Standard revealed by His Word.

Can the law prevent us from living as heathens? Sure--but that does not mean we will be actively pursuing the Betterment of others. Only Love working by Faith as Christ lives through us can do that!!!

 

[JonShaff]

Concerning Romans 7....

The advocate of the Augustinian view contends that the unregenerate person could not and will not "delight in God's law after the inward man" as the man in the passage says he is doing (7:22); only Christians, they urge, can do that. But I beg to differ. Saul of Tarsus, as a Pharisee, did just that. It may legitimately be said that throughout his life as a self-righteous Pharisee he "delighted in the law of God with his mind"-- observance of the law was his very reason for being. He was a "son of the law," was commited to it, and wanted to obey it. But when the tenth commandment truly "came home" to him at some point with condemning power (had he coveted Stephen's knowledge of Scripture and his exegetical power?) and made him aware of his indwelling sinfulness, the sin which had always dwelt within him "came to life" and he "died" (7:9). Paul also declared that the Jewish nation was "pursuing" a righteousness of its own through law-keeping (Rom. 9:31-32). Apparently, then, unregenerate people can sincerely desire to be obedient to the law. Their problem, as the passage teaches, is their impotence to do what they want to do or know to be right. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, pg. 1129

I see this in Christ's teaching as well...

Luke 18
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

And we know who left justified....

EDIT to add--the Simplest teaching i have realized on Romans 7--or a *simplified view*--is that Paul is addressing the impossibility of "Being an Obedient Jew" without the Spirit of God.

Yes, Jews wanted to "do good" and "uphold the law" but as Paul said "They could not find the means to do it." (being devoid of the Spirit of God). Thus, proclaiming Sanctification apart from the Spirit is Impossible.