The future of Baptists

[wizofoz]

We have several people whose names are on the roll, but I have never seen step foot in the church.

If someone misses a week or two, it would be a good thing to call and see if they're ok, but not "you better start coming back or we'll kick you out!" That will assuredly keep them away, perhaps go looking for another church.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I've already written as to how my home church tracks and deals with its deadwood. And yes, we do take attendence in our Sunday School and Sunday Adult Bible Study classes. Further, folks are encouraged but not required to register their presence at the Sunday services.

As to the voting in our business meetings, of course, the vote is restricted to members in good standing. However, most of these meetings occur in conjunction with out Wednesday Evening Service. So, we have very few visitors and those of our more "sunshine" members seem to have other matters to attend to at that time. Simply put, most folks don't come to San Francisco to be members of a church that was fundemental before Fundementalism was fun. So, there is no reason for them to stick around and mess things up.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
I've attended church quite regularly the past 6 months, but I have not attended a service at the congregation where my "church letter" is since December 8th of last year. I guess I must be a "bad" Christian

"Bad" would be stronger a word than I would use at this point. I would seriously question why you do not attend the body which you covenanted with. Is it not that important? If not, why not? Why is the body of Christ treated with so little value?

As to the wiz, we do not approach them with "start coming back or we'll kick you out." We approach them with the biblical teaching on the body and encourage them to be obedient to the Word. Is that so bad????

To Mitsy, the largeness of a church shows the importance to be involved in a smaller group. The visiting should not have to be done by the pastor. There should be people ministering to one another in that fashion. If someone is not missed, then someone is not doing their job in the body. And if you let business be run on teh honor system, I could come with a group of disgruntled people and totally disrupt your meeting. People who are disobedient to God and intent on division in the body will not be limited by an honor system.

I notice again that not one biblical objection has been registered. Why?

 

[Mitsy]

I tend to not quote scriptures much as sometimes the quoting makes for very long posts that few people read. And like it or not, scriptures can be interpretted differently by different people.

I will say that I believe church attendance is important, and yes, there needs to be a group of deacon/deaconess people "tending" to the flock. I don't think it's just the pastor's job, however, in my own experiences, I have found that when a church nearly doubles in size, (as the one I was in) the pastor ends up oftentimes preaching only with little time if any for home or hospital visits...little time even for a friendly word in passing in the fellowship hall. That can make for people just not wanting to attend because they don't feel all that important in the church family.

Small groups are great, but they were mainly geared towards families or "couples" at my former church. Very few singles and very few programs for single people. That added to my reasons for leaving the group, but it took almost a year for the pastor to make a visit to me to find out why.

 

[KPBAP]

Well, Mr. Lack O'Knowlege here! I still haven't seen SCRIPTURAL evidence (Chapter and verse) where Jesus commanded church membership. Faithful worship YES!! Did the synagogues have Sabbath evening and Wednesday prayer service???
I think I would be more concerned of a members' needs -- spiritual and physical than to keep tabs on whether they were in the pew everytime the doors were open.
How is your young adult (45 and under) attendance, Larry??

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by KPBAP:
Well, Mr. Lack O'Knowlege here! I still haven't seen SCRIPTURAL evidence (Chapter and verse) where Jesus commanded church membership. Faithful worship YES!! Did the synagogues have Sabbath evening and Wednesday prayer service???

The synagogue met every day. They did not limit it to the Sabbath and Wednesday. I never brought that up.

I think I would be more concerned of a members' needs -- spiritual and physical than to keep tabs on whether they were in the pew everytime the doors were open.

Why pick? I never said anything about being there every time the door was open, though I can't think of a good reason why someone who was not at work or sick wouldn't be there. When the word of God is being taught, it seems pretty important to me. But to draw a distinction between spiritual and physical needs and faithful church attendance is a bogus distinction.

How is your young adult (45 and under) attendance, Larry??

More than half of our congregation, and the most faithful half. It is the only demographic where we have seen anyone saved or joined the church in recent years.

But notice how you did not address any of the scriptural issues involved. Why not?? What do you make of the body passages? If you would pursue the issues if a part of your body was not functioning properly, why not pursue it when the spiritual body (which is vastly more important) is not properly functioning?

If your child didn't show up for meals and bed time, how many absences would you accept before you went after him to find him and find out what was going on?? I am sure it would not take too many missed meals for you to start after them because of hte love and care you have for them. Why is your spiritual family any different? I think you have totally blown past the real issues in your pursuit of misplaced accusations of legalism. These issues are not ones that I made up. They are scriptural issues. Church membership and involvement is a biblical issue, not a cultural one to be dispensed with because of convenience.

 

[KPBAP]

When the word of God is being taught, it seems pretty important to me.

I totally agree, and I bet we agree on more than we disagree. I believe that once a Christian has been discipled that they are responsible for their acts of worship, attendance and ministry involvement. Growing up in the Midwest in the 60's where Baptists were and are a rare breed, I attended Sunday morning, evening, Wednesday and whenever "revivals" were held. Worship and Bible Study are indeed important to Christian development. My original post and question was concerning young adults involvement in the leadership of church polity and ministry and is the Baptist denomination losing its future!

 

[dianetavegia]

KPBAP, and I still report that our church and our area is seeing the young people TURN BACK to God and to church.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Diane

 

[Ben W]

In Australia the two members of the Baptist World Alliance, the SDB and the Baptist Union are both growing.

It is important to realise that all churches grow in different ways. Often a Baptist church that has many elderly people in it is in an area that reflaects that generally in its local population. Yet in a new housing area the church is often full of young families.

Older congregations often grow as the area influxes with new people. Yet it is important to realise that we should never be happy with the numbers that we have. We should always be focused on evangalism to Others.

Another reason that churches can seem to be top heavy with older people is that many do not come to the Lord until the Eleventh hour.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by KPBAP:
My original post and question was concerning young adults involvement in the leadership of church polity and ministry and is the Baptist denomination losing its future!

Ah, the original topic. My apologies. I followed someone else's trail there I think. I think many young adults are falling for the old "non-denominational" line as churches drop the name "baptist" (not in and of itself a problem). Often when they do so, there is a paradigmatic shift away from baptist distinctives to more benign things for the sake of not offending those. In 10-20 years, the Baptist churches will look pretty like they do now I think. But there will be a lot more non-denoms.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Membership terms ARE mentioned in the Bible (you wanted Scripture, right?)

Acts 2:41 There was a "number" of disciples (can read Acts 1 and see the list of who was part of this church) "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Acts 6:2-3 There was an "organized body" that could meet and vote "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business."

I Timothy 5:9ff The church Tim pastored had active enrollment in a "widows class". They knew who was/was not qualified to be in that group. This was a formal "enrollment" within the local church. "Let a widow be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man . . "

I Cor 12 by analogy is also clear. The church in Corinth was a "body" and each person in it a "limb" or "member" (from Latin membrum).

My church has members as part of the body. No loose arms or toes hanging around!

 

[ColoradoFB]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
We also have a large number of people who have weekend homes and they'll miss a few weekends a month.

People who regularly miss church for the leisure of a vacation home need to be challenged about their priorities.</font>[/QUOTE]

How do you know what their priorities are? It is not up to you to set them. Besides, if someone has a vacation home, they may attend another house of worship during their time away.

Is it not the movement of the Holy Spirit that draws people to church? Let him do his work without your interference.

This IS pure legalism and the church trying to run people's lives. I for one, would send you packing if you came to my door with these ultimatums. Oh yeah, I'd never come back to your church either. Obviously, it would not be a good fit for me.

[ June 14, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: ColoradoFB ]

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KPBAP:
My original post and question was concerning young adults involvement in the leadership of church polity and ministry and is the Baptist denomination losing its future!

Ah, the original topic. My apologies. I followed someone else's trail there I think. I think many young adults are falling for the old "non-denominational" line as churches drop the name "baptist" (not in and of itself a problem). Often when they do so, there is a paradigmatic shift away from baptist distinctives to more benign things for the sake of not offending those. In 10-20 years, the Baptist churches will look pretty like they do now I think. But there will be a lot more non-denoms. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, I am not a young adult, but I can tell you why the young adults are going elsewhere (and why two of the fastest growing churches around here are new church plants. The reason is that
young adults want real worship, not tradition, they want Bible teaching, not 150 versions of the same salvation sermon each year, and they want a church where the most important meeting every month is NOT the monthy business meeting.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ColoradoFB:
How do you know what their priorities are?

By what they do. (Wasn't that simple??) It's true in everybody's life, even yours and mine. Priorities are among the easiest things to determine about people.

It is not up to you to set them.

I don't.

Besides, if someone has a vacation home, they may attend another house of worship during their time away.

They may, but how can you be actively involved in your church if you are gone every other weekend, or every weekend?? Who picks up the slack while you are gone from your place of ministry that you are commanded to have in the body?

And just to ask a simple question, Why not come back on Saturday night so you can spend Sunday with the rest of your body? Why not leave Thursday night instead of Friday night so you can beat the traffic and still fulfill your role in the body? Or is missing a day of work worse than missing the opportunity to meet with the body of Christ?

Is it not the movement of the Holy Spirit that draws people to church? Let him do his work without your interference.

I do. He does it through the accurate teaching and preaching of his word. I do not interefere in the text at all. I simply preach it.

This IS pure legalism and the church trying to run people's lives. I for one, would send you packing if you came to my door with these ultimatums. Oh yeah, I'd never come back to your church either. Obviously, it would not be a good fit for me.

Why?? Do you have a scriptural objection?? It is so interesting to me that you, along with everyone else has complained, have yet to offer even one scriptural objection to what I have said. Why not support your objection from Scripture? The lack of Scriptural objection is as telling as it is frustrating.

Legalism is a cheap charge. But you have made no case. The most you have said is that a weekend home is more important than meeting with the body of Christ. But you haven't shown how anything I have said is against the teaching of Scripture.

But this really gets to the bigger question that I have asked and no one has yet to answer. What is the importance of the body? Why does someone have the authority to mistreat the body for their own convenience?? How is someone involved in ministry if they are not faithful in attendance to the body? To whom are they accountable and to whom are they ministering? Is the body that unimportant to you??

Perhaps the bigger question is, Why is the body dynamic and the body responsibilities so unfamiliar to believers who are supposed to be being taught the whole counsel of God?? Why is this so radical??

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Major B:
The reason is that
young adults want real worship, not tradition, they want Bible teaching, not 150 versions of the same salvation sermon each year, and they want a church where the most important meeting every month is NOT the monthy business meeting.

What do you think they are finding as "real worship"?

While I agree that many churches are tradition bound and weak in preaching, most of the fundamental churches I am familiar with are certainly not that. I think this is a bit simplistic, IMO