The future of the Catholic Church.

[Ben W]

As the dust setles and people get used to the idea that Ratzinger is the new Pope of the Roman Catholic church, people are being interviewed here stating that they are concerned that he is a "Right Wing Conservative" and will not lead the church in a more liberal direction.

The question is, lets suppose that a new pope did come along and approve contraception, priests marrying and female priests. Would it really make any difference to there numbers anyway? I dont think so.

Various Protestant churches are growing in South America and other places reputed to be the heartland of Catholiscm, yet not for those three reasons, rather that the actual doctrine and dogma of the church is wrong.

I think that if people are looking for change in the Roman Catholic Church, maybe a shift to the Baptist Distinctives might be a good start!

 

[gb93433]

Baptist Distinctives! Why call them Baptist Distinctives? They are not. They were being practiced by churches long before Baptists came along. I see no place in scripture where Paul and Jesus were Baptists. We cannot take pride in being Baptist because when we do, that is the start of a downfall. On the west coast where I once lived the Baptist churches are being replaced by more conservative evangelical churches that are doing evangelism rather than sitting in their holy huddle. Those Baptist churches don't even work together. They are dying. Many have left the Baptist churches because they teach the denominational party line and the preaching is weak. While many of the new churches being started are evangelical and the preaching is good. In that area for churces to survive they must share their faith. Putting up a sign does nothing.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday pledged to work to unify all Christians, reach out to other religions.

First, his "primary task" would be to work to reunify all Christians.

Second, the new pope said he wanted to continue "an open and sincere dialogue" with other religions and would do everything in his power to improve the ecumenical cause.

So, based on the Roman Catholic Church what group do you think you are in? First, or second?

 

[Bob Krajcik]

I agree, those distinctive tenets used by Baptists would be very good for the effort of the Roman Catholic Church to start use for implementing change in the Roman Catholic church.

 

[HankD]

Baptist Distinctives! Why call them Baptist Distinctives? They are not.

They are Baptists Distinctives because most/many Baptists have defined them as such. No one has said that other churches haven't held them at least in part.

Church groups other than Baptists have held some of the Baptist distinctives, and one may even find churches that hold all of the distinctives but do not call themselves Baptist. Such groups are "baptistic," but for some reason they choose not to be identified as Baptists. On the other hand, some churches naming themselves "Baptist" are not truly Baptist because they no longer hold the historic Baptist beliefs or even the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
http://www.garbc.org/baptdist.php

As a former catholic, the Baptist Distinctives were a major part of the reason I was drawn to Baptist churches.


HankD

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday pledged to work to unify all Christians, reach out to other religions.

First, his "primary task" would be to work to reunify all Christians.

Second, the new pope said he wanted to continue "an open and sincere dialogue" with other religions and would do everything in his power to improve the ecumenical cause.

So, based on the Roman Catholic Church what group do you think you are in? First, or second?

As a theological consultant for Vatican II, Pope Benedict XVI's position and the official RCC position is that protestants (and baptists if you prefer) are in the first group.

Decree on Ecumenism - Unitatis Redintegratio

...
2.
...
Before offering Himself up as a spotless victim upon the altar, Christ prayed to His Father for all who believe in Him: "that they all may be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me".(3)
...
as the Apostle teaches us: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism".(6) For "all you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus".(7)
...
3.
...
It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
...
4. Today, in many parts of the world, under the inspiring grace of the Holy Spirit, many efforts are being made in prayer, word and action to attain that fullness of unity which Jesus Christ desires. The Sacred Council exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism.

In sections 13 and 19, they go on to explain that the communities that resulted from the Reformation (even Baptists who are Landmarkers) are included in these separated communities.

With other religions, the RCC position is not one of ecumenism but of dialogue.

 

[preachinjesus]

one of the things most American Catholics can't seem to get through their head is many of these doctrines are so intrinsically linked to Apostolic Succession that they can't change or the whole of Catholicism will be destroyed. The notion that all authority flows from the Holy See of Peter (this Apostolic Succession business) is the core of Catholic doctrine. Due to the veracity of this doctrine matters such as:

1. Female priests
2. Married priests

simply can't happen since a priest, in Catholic doctine, must be pure like Christ in order to be able to deliver the sacraments to his people. They have to be like Christ in order to assume the person of Christ through the power given through the Bishop of Rome. Its a highly systemmatic process and they aren't planning on moving away from it now or in the future. It would be a dark day in Rome if they ever did move away from it too.

As for more social matters of contraception, abortion, and so forth the Catholic church can move away and still be linked to the core doctrines of the faith. Yet, thankfully, it seems this Pope will not move them away from this. Personally I don't get how a celibate priest can lecture married couples on the role of sex in a marriage...but I digress.

With Benedict XVI we still maintain an ally in this common cultural war, even if the liberal American Catholic church doesn't realize it. That's another matter too, that the the United States Catholic Church is really seen as the red-headed stepchild of the Catholic Church and the parishes here might well be staffed with foreign priests soon enough.

 

[Bro. James]

For the record:

1. True Baptists have always been separate from Rome. They did not come out of the "Reformation".(contrary to the Catholic Encyclopedia)

2. The daughters of Rome will go back to their mother. That is the ecumenism which is on "center stage" at present.

3. The Bride, the Lamb's wife, has never defiled herself with any unclean thing. She is still out there--waiting for the Bridegroom.

4. What fellowship has the Temple of God with Belial?

5. Beware the wolves dressed like sheep.

Selah,

Bro. James

P.S. Celibacy is a relatively new false doctrine. Peter apparently had a wife--the scripture says he had a sick mother-in-law. Priestly celibacy and vestal virginity are grounded in paganism--like mostly everything else which is promulgated by the "holy see". The scripture teaches that all believers are saints and priests. Praise the Lord.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Bro. James:

For the record:

1. Amen
2. Amen
3. Amen
4. Amen
5. Amen

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Gold Dragon:

Those things you say about the Roman Catholic Church are interesting. I have not seen that before. While they would say such a thing, I am happy to not follow along and agree with them.

Here is some that I have been taught about the Roman Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic Vatican II has to say: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslem's; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

One would think the Scriptures were made void.

Roman Catholic Vatican II has to say: "This holy Council teaches...that the Church...is necessary for salvation...Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." ... "This sacred council accepts loyally the venerable faith of our ancestors in the living communion which exists between us and our brothers who are in the glory of heaven or who are yet being purified after their death; and it proposes again the decrees of the Second Council of Nicea, of the Council of Florence, and of the Council of Trent."

From the Council of Trent we see a curse on any that would believe what the Bible says: "If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary...to believe with certainty and without hesitation...that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema."

Do you say you are saved and you know? Do you say you are saved today, and ten thousand years from now you know you will still be saved? Then what I have been taught is the Roman Catholic church says let you be anathema. From the Council of Trent, "If anyone says that he will for certain...have that great gift of perseverance even to the end...let him be anathema."

Roman Catholic Vatican II says: "This holy Council teaches...that the Church...is necessary for salvation."

It seems they are not consistent with what they say. Now, where is a copy of those distinctive doctrines used by Baptists to send to them to use as they start implementing change in their Roman Catholic church?

By grace,

 

[Gold Dragon]

Hi Bob. You initially asked about Benedict XVI's understanding of ecumenicalism with respect to Baptists and the document I quoted from was a document in the council of Vatican II where Benedict XVI contributed as a theological adviser.

Commenting on your above post would hijack this thread a little too much. I would recommend reposting some of your concerns about Catholicism in a thread I started in the Baptist Theology forum called "Cooperating with Catholics". In that thread, I already addressed most of your concerns but I'll repost some of the information for you.

[ April 20, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Thanks. I really didn't intend to hijack this thread. Your post seemed to answer my question about what the Roman Catholic Church would say, regarding the identy of a Christian as opposed to other religion. My addition remarks were to express further support for the notion of their using the Baptist distinctives. They could certainly profit from them, however much they say we are all the same. I will see if I can find the thread you mentioned, to see if I have any comments for that.

 

[Bro. James]

Required background study: Pontifex Maximus.

An interesting fellow.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Baptist Vine]

Originally posted by Ben W:
As the dust setles and people get used to the idea that Ratzinger is the new Pope of the Roman Catholic church, people are being interviewed here stating that they are concerned that he is a "Right Wing Conservative" and will not lead the church in a more liberal direction.

The question is, lets suppose that a new pope did come along and approve contraception, priests marrying and female priests. Would it really make any difference to there numbers anyway? I dont think so.

Various Protestant churches are growing in South America and other places reputed to be the heartland of Catholiscm, yet not for those three reasons, rather that the actual doctrine and dogma of the church is wrong.

I think that if people are looking for change in the Roman Catholic Church, maybe a shift to the Baptist Distinctives might be a good start!

Catholic churches in Latin America are loosing members because the church failed to support the poor and the oppressed.

Jesus loves the poor and oppressed, and God the Father hates with a pure holy hatred, all who oppress the poor.

Of course the justification for this was that everybody who wants food and a job, and wants to work, are all really evil communists in disguise.

And the situation wasn't helped by the fact that there really were Marxist terrorists and revolutionaries. The Christian says, or ought to say at least, love your neighbour, and don't deny a labourer his wages. While the Marxist arrives at a point only vaguely similar, but through violent means and revolution.

And so the Pentecotals got all the poor.

Judgemnt Day is coming.

 

[mioque]

"Catholic churches in Latin America are loosing members because the church failed to support the poor and the oppressed."
"
Would definetely disagree with you there. Remember Oscar Romero?

 

[Soulman]

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday pledged to work to unify all Christians, reach out to other religions.

Reach out as he may. All his unifying and reaching out will accomplish is the establishment of a false global religion.

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik: Second, the new pope said he wanted to continue "an open and sincere dialogue" with other religions and would do everything in his power to improve the ecumenical cause.

This new pope doesn't desire to worship with other religions. His aim is to bring everyone into the RCC because the RCC is necessary for salvation. Everyone must convert. They have never changed.

Posted by Gold Dragon: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism".(6) For "all you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus". True unity as described here would mean in DOCTRINE. This false unity seeks to knock down the walls of division and just worship Jesus together. We must worship in Spirit and truth! That is the unity God speaks of.

All this Tiny Tim Tip toe through the tulips christianity makes me want to purge my lunch.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Soulman said: All his unifying and reaching out will accomplish is the establishment of a false global religion.

I agree with what you are saying.

Soulman said: They have never changed.

I agree with what you are saying.

 

[Baptist Vine]

Originally posted by mioque:
"Catholic churches in Latin America are loosing members because the church failed to support the poor and the oppressed."
"
Would definetely disagree with you there. Remember Oscar Romero?

With what do you disagree? That the RC ostensibly failed to support the poor?

Whatever the cause, RC membership is dropping in the third world and Latin America, and growing in other denominations, like, but not solely limited to the Pentecostals.

It was Romero I had in mind actually. After his assasination, people fled in droves to other denominations.

JPII refused to make Romero a saint, allegedly because of his association with "liberation theology".

JPII sent some kind of overseer (not the correct term) to look over Romero's shoulder.

Ratzinger and JPII both were staunch opponents of liberation theology.

Romero helped the poor, no doubt about that. But the RC hierarch in Rome abandoned them all. Now it's back to business as usual.

There may be lots wrong with "liberation theology", I don't know, I've never looked into it.

But there has never been anything wrong or unbiblical with helping the poor.

 

[Soulman]

The future of the RCC, it's leaders and members' not willing to seek truth is the lake of fire.

 

[mioque]

Baptist Vine
"JPII refused to make Romero a saint, allegedly because of his association with "liberation theology"."
"
JPII was an enemy of Marxism, liberation theology has a Marxist streak.
Liberation theology is not the same as the Social Gospel.