The future of the Independent Baptist movement? What do we need to address?

Here's the IFB formula for education:

1. Learn the Romans Road.

2. Learn the sinner's prayer.

3. Learn how to say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost...Buried in His likeness, raised to walk in newness of life."

4. Learn Hebrews 10:25

5. Learn some verses on tithing (you'll find them in the O.T.)

6. Learn some verses on the Rapture.

7. Learn how to pound your fist on the pulpit when imposing your standards.

8. Learn how to sing "Just As I Am". Repeat several times.

You're done. Anything else is of the devil. Now go to work.

 

J.D.

I understand your concerns and have seen them myself personally, however I feel that you are painting with to broad a brush. True there are many IFB pastors and churches that are anti-intellectual; most can be found in the Hyles/Sword of the Lord/ Crown College/ KJVO ect. type camp.

But to be fair their are many IFB churches that put the proper premium on education. Those of the other persuasion can go right on doing there own thing, for it does not effect me in any way, shape, or form.

 

JD,

wow, I think you need to educate yourself a little more there.

What kind of "job" were you trying to get done with your so-called politeness?

That last post of yours was completely unfair. Why do you think you have to have an entire seminary education in order to minister to people? What did Christians do back before seminaries existed? Do you think the only valid churches began to exist when the seminaries started to be founded? How about those Christians and churches that exist where no seminary education is available? Are they second-class?

 

Hello 4Hisglory, Yeh I painted with broad stroke on purpose to generate interest in the subject, but what I said is pretty much on target for the places I've been, which were mostly under the influence you mentioned. MrCoon and Bapmom got my attention with their defenses of anti-educationalism. I've been there. Seminaries are called cemetaries, everyone laughs. I've seen the rolling of the eyes and the gigling as educated men were mocked. I've been a faithful IFB'r for 20+ years and I didn't really learn anything beyond the rapture until about 2 1/2 years ago when I began studying theology on my own through internet sources. The end result was that I've been forbidden to teach in my own church, and before that, when I was teaching I became the object of the rolling eyes. I apologize for spewing some bitterness around. But can we learn from it?

 

Lets turn the tables. It seems by many discussions on this topipc that , it is the SBC that put too much weight on a "Seminary Education". Many are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of Christ.
You come over here to Sri Lanka with that idea, you will get nowhere.
Bapmom is right on. I am training two men right now to go out and start churches, to be ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, no experts on Church History.

Not only that, but it seems (emphasis on seems)that many SBC are moving into the CMC scene and various versions as well. Why the change all of a sudden? It is time to take a stand and not move from it.
Is the problem really the SBC or IFB, it is neither. It is the spirit that is working in these last days, which by the way, even works in training institutions support by the Co-op.

Your call on how IFB"s are, regardless of how you grew up is very wrong. You better take that log out of your eye before you tell your brother he has a sliver in his.

edited for proper formatting KR

 

I'm not in Sri Lanka, didn't know I needed to focus my comments on that scope of needs.

Scuze me for havin an opinion. How is it wrong if it's a reflection of my experiences? Watch out for that log, I'm turning!

But I know how you feel. I used to despise criticism of the IFB too.

 

JD,

I can't speak for MRCoon, he does a good job speaking for himself. BUt Im not anti-education. I went to four years of accredited Bible college, and I encourage my children to someday attend college as well. However, I do believe that some of the best education happens in hands-on ministering. Only so much can be learned in the classroom. At some point it has to be taken into the real world and applied. The vast majority of people don't care what you know about church history, or about the deeper meaning of the ten toes of Daniel. They need to know about Jesus CHrist.

Like I said before, the various views on theology, and the intricacies of the history of Baptists are all things that can be learned about through a lifetime of study.

Saying that learning is lifelong is not anti-education. If you never get out there and DO it, then your education means nothing.

 

I do not despise what you say about IFB's. But your comment on "The education of IFB" is wrong. I do not know one church that holds to that philosophy, not one. I have known of one pastor that would prescribe to that theory and he's not in the ministry any more.
Education is a wonderful tool, I believe we should strive for the best we can get, especially ministers of the Gospel. But it is not an end in itself. I am in the process of attaining my Mdiv and am thankful for the opportunity, especially being in Sri Lanka, but that Mdiv will not afford me more opportunities to win a nation that does not know Christ. There is 20 million people here, 55,000 towns and villages and half have never even heard of Christ. There is only three other missionaries that I know of and one on the way. They do not need an Mdiv, Thd or Phd, they need indigneous NT Baptist churches planted. Most of men trained for the ministry will not receive more than two to three years of institute training. Maybe what we need is for some Thd's Phd's and Mdiv's , to leave their big pay checks, come over here and start a seminary and leave the winning of souls to us dumb ones who only have a four year degree. But, when it comes to a third world country , I guess they have to settle for what there is, people called of God to win souls, disciple, train nationals and plant Nt Churches.

 

I agree, USMC

 

Hello Squire, nice post. Mind if I ask you what school you went to?

As for assuming what is happening in our slice holding true in other parts, I assure you I'm not making that assumption. The OP hit on the same issues, especially the first, that I have concern with and I figured that if there's a few of us out here that share these concerns there must be a trend somewhere. My harsh criticism is intended to confront the promoters of the anti-education camp - and I know it exists. And I believe that some folks are in that camp but don't realize it. If we bring to the fore, we can improve.

 

If you read Acts and the epistles, you will find that most of these problems and worse have been around since the first century church. It doesn’t mean that we gladly tolerate or ignore them but it’s the wheat and the tares. We fight sin wherever we encounter it but we cannot spend all our time and effort sitting around opining the demise of the church. It seems that we’re carrying the whole burden on our own shoulders and it is really God’s church. Our job is faithfulness. Let God deal with His church.

IMHO, I am not fully persuaded that whining on the Internet is going to accomplish anything good. I find no insightful analysis of factors or helpful suggestions for remediation. So, what’s the purpose? In fact, most of the points are well-worn whining points already threadbare through over-posting. I may well ask: Why waste the bandwidth not to mention the time and effort?

To justify my own post, I will add a point of my own that was overlooked in the opening post. One of the major liabilities of modern IFB is the negative, critical attitude toward our heritage. The faults are magnified out of proportion to the good that is just as studiously ignored. Being human, flaws abound in any church, organization or movement. It takes no talent or wisdom to point out these obvious shortcomings. However, it does take wisdom and discernment to offer a fair, balanced judgment. Whereas I have seen an abundance of unlearned and undiscerning negative criticism of IFB, I have found little balanced and thoughtful analysis.

As a parting shot, I find this Fundamentalist phobia and paranoia about education most amusing. Education is a Fundamentalist fetish. I am reminded of an old friend who was compelled to get his doctorate from Duke Divinity School just to wipe out the stigma of his “Holy Roller” upbringing. IFB’s are better educated than their parents but I fail to find better wisdom, discernment and wisdom. Education is a fine thing but it is not the best thing. Perhaps, we ought to seek righteousness, wisdom, character and goodness more than education. BTW, you can’t accuse me of being anti-education because I am an educator and fairly well educated. :smilewinkgrin:

 

I doubt it. If you have some cogent points, then state them and present your argument. After analyzing the problem and presenting your points, offer some suggestions for remediation. Otherwise, it's all talk. If it's just talk, it amounts to little more than muckraking which is closely akin to gossip.

BTW, do you know why there is an anti-education bias among certain IFB circles?

 

paidagogos, are you a fundy or anti-fundy? Seems from your post you have some bitter sentiments toward IFB in general.

I

Then please give us some balance and thoughtful analysis.

Educate me. How can a fundy have a fear (phobia), in fact an unreasonalbe fear (paranoia), of something which he also has an inordinate affection (fetish) for?

 

Yeah, I've run into too many educated and degreed wannabe intellectuals who ain't. Their is great ignorance among the supposedly educated. I've caught the Harvard intelligentsia as well as the Oxford don in intellectual fox paw.

Education is a mania for the insecure and paranoid. Of course, education, for most folks, translates into degrees which do not always means the person is educated. By the same token, some who do not have degrees are highly educated. One of my favorites is Wilbur M. Smith who taught at Moody, Fuller and Trinity without a seminary degree.

However, your major mistake is that you have unfairly misrepresented the IFB. My IFB circles have a higher than average education with a proper emphasis on education. (BTW, education is good but character, honesty, righteousness and goodness are more important.) A bachelor's is minimal with M.Div.'s and D.Min.'s being commonplace. Perhaps it is your ignorance of the broader spectrum to make such a poor assertion.

 

What are you? A psychoanalyst?

Let me make it simple for you. Some Fundamentalists do have a fear of education because of liberalism/modernism in the colleges and seminaries. They sent off their believing youth only to have them return as degreed unbelievers. On the other hand, modern Fundamentalists have a paranoia about being labelled as ignorant or uneducated. So, it's a kind of mixed love-hate relationship. For many, it is a mania. They must be educated at acceptable accredited schools. Fundamentalists, like the old-time Holy Rollers, have gained some measure of worldly acceptance and have thus become socially conscious in the world. The badge of social acceptability is a degree.

Now, leaving the minor points, why don't you answer my questions in my post?

 

:laugh: I was intending to ignore this psychologized inanity but it is too good to pass up. Now, please tell me how my bitter sentiments were revealed. I'm amazed at all the amateur analysts who can so wrongly read our most private sentiments and thoughts. Dude, you've treed the wrong coon here. I am an IFB of the most strict IFB's. Ain't nobody agonna out-Pharisee me. And I gotta a sense of humus too. Do you?
:saint:

 

I actually agree with much of what you're saying but the way you come on throws me off. Not sure where you're coming from. Not sure what question you wanted me to answer. Didn't know I was psychoanylizing. Sorry. Sorry for whatever I just said that offends you. You're hilarious I think.

 

Right on target! By the way JD, is the reaon why you were pulled out of a teaching position at your church is because you converted to 5 point Calvinism? As you said, your learning is from the Internet, I guess that is why you are so high up on education? What Baptist believes Calvinism? That in no way is part of the Fundamentals. That is no way Baptist. You can not be a Baptist but believe Reformed Theology.

 

Right on target! By the way JD, is the reaon why you were pulled out of a teaching position at your church is because you converted to 5 point Calvinism? As you said, your learning is from the Internet, I guess that is why you are so high up on education? What Baptist believes Calvinism? That in no way is part of the Fundamentals. That is no way Baptist. You can not be a Baptist but believe Reformed Theology.