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The future of the Independent Baptist movement? What do we need to address?

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Spoudazo, Jul 2, 2006.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I agree. If a man does not nor has ever made any disciples who are following Jesus Christ then he has wasted his life and been disobedient to the command Jesus gave to His disciples. Too often those who teach have never made any disciples and ought to be fired from their positions. I sense that if that were to happen our theological schools across America would be rather empty. I have always advocated the removal of every pastor and deacon who has not discipled anyone to be removed from their lofty "position." What kind of example is a person who is disobedient and does not serve as a proper example of the correct interpretation of scripture?

    Show me one man in scripture or otherwise who is empty of a knowledge of God's word and full of wisdom.

    If I remember history and my education serves me right, a doctorate is a rather modern invention and would not be applicable to Jesus' time.
     
  2. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    RE:4hisglory

     
  3. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Then you are calling many many IFBs not true Baptists. I am sorry you are this narrow minded.

    I have read it several times, and used to ascribe to it, but it is many historical inaccuaracies. Some of the groups that Caroll claims to be Baptist where rather heretical even though they practiced immersion.

    They broke from the Catholic church had no desire to idnentify with Rome in anyway. I don't know where you are getting your church history from friend, but it is not right. Yes they did put to death some Anabaptists, and that was wrong, but I trust that you are far different from those anabaptists that were killed. Most of them sprinkled, some of them were political radicals who caused socail chaos, some were polygamist, some were, anti-trinitarian, and some denied justification by faith.

    I applauled those anabapitst for the things they did get right, but where they were not biblical, I am far from them. If you want to identify with them in a closer relationship then by all means go ahead, just realize who you are throughing your lot in with.

    I am sorry for your pride friend. Most IFB Baptists believe in a universal chruch. So I guess they are not "true baptists" in your opinion. And Calvin was not a Catholic, read a real book a church history instead of the twisted source you must be using.

    Then I guess Spurgeon, Carey,Judson, Evans, Backus, Stearns, Williams, Fuller, and others were not really baptists. They what where they?
     
  4. savethebaptists

    savethebaptists New Member

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    what on earth is a "reformed catholic reconstructionist"?[/QUOTE]

    i'm going to quote a few paragraphs from james beller's book The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People

    "a movement that started with rousas john rushdoony. he is a catholic reformed presbyterian theologian who believed in religious establishments in civil government he is an augustinian.

    andrew sandlin, former president of the chalcedon foundation, the original recronstructionist organization, said christian recronstructionism "is a version of the reformed postmillenial theology that emphasizes the concepts of theonomy and dominion" by definition, the recronstructionists are classic augustinians. and they are for the most part calvinist presbyterians

    in the beginning of their movement, the reconstructionis were willing to discuss their strategy. this is not so today today every reconstrucionist will flatly deny any association with the movement. but in the early 1980's the reconstructionis, under r.j. rushdoony and his son-in-law, gary north, formed the geneva divinity school, headquartered in tyler, texas.

    the school published three that contain their theology and plan for the reconstrucion of the american republic the books are:
    the failure of the american baptist culture
    the theology of christian resistance
    the tactics of christian resistance

    reconstructionist apparent disdain of the baptist principles and theology is of the same nature that was harbored by the catholic church toward the novationinsts, donatists, etc. and it is understandable for the reconstrucionists have freely admitted they are augustinians." (Beller, 32-35)
     
  5. savethebaptists

    savethebaptists New Member

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    "They broke from the Catholic church had no desire to idnentify with Rome in anyway. I don't know where you are getting your church history from friend, but it is not right."

    wait a minute, calvin and zwingli were reformers they tried to re-form the church.
    calvin did not split from the church just like luther didn't. he simply revived an older catholic doctrine, augustinianism. the only differences from augustinianism are that calvin said that sacrements are a means to grace and calvin was also postmillenial. calvin and zwingli and luther for that matter still wanted a church state marriage and all three never actually split from the catholic church
     
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    "savethebaptists", you must be the author of the book you're quoting, or a fanatical disciple of the man. It's foolish for you to be so invested in such an unorthodox work. To say that a man believes in a "Holy Catholic Church" (meaning universal, world-wide, not limited to one nation of people), and to say that a man IS "catholic", as in "Roman Catholic", is ignorant or foolish, or both.
     
  7. MRCoon

    MRCoon New Member

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    James Carroll, Richard Clearwaters, John Dagg or John Bunyan. I tend to claim these Baptist Leaders of old Dr. John R Rice, Lester Roloff, Dr. Bob Jones, or Dr. Jack Hyles.

    Ok so I named more than 3 what prize do I get?

    Some how I have been misconstrued as an anti-education IFB-er. Funny I just transfered 155 credits to Liberty University and am still short of my Bachelor's degree in Youth Ministries. I transfered so many credits because I was one of them "professional students" I have attended local Community College, Campbell University, Chapman University, Univeristy of Maryland and now Liberty University. I've had the following declared majors: Nursing, Education, Computer Science, Psychology, and now Religious Studies. So I'm probably not the poster boy for anti-education you guys are trying to make me out to be!

    So for the record and clarification I'm NOT anti-education in regards to someone being in the ministry without an education (or one being required to be in the ministry) but I'm not education focused. Meaning that a certian level of college or degree is not necessary or required to work in a church, on a mission field or any other christian ministry. Also, as it has been stated many times already...but let me make it bold - EDUCATION DOES NOT MAKE ONE MORE KNOWLEDGABLE. IT DEFINITELY DOES NOT MAKE ONE MORE SPIRITUAL OR MORE GODLY.

    I think we need to have more pastors and leaders worrying about winning souls instead of padding their resume or their education portfolio. I think that pastors/churches do their ministry and members a disfavor by not training them more in the work of the ministry. Every church should have internal "Preacher's Schools" training their men in the skills and arts of preaching. Every church should have a "Bible Institute" training their men and women in theology, church history, understanding of the Scriptures, and study of the Scriptures. Every church should have internal capabilities to train leaders and disciple members...I don't think we should be sending off our people who are usually the most faithful and hardest working families in the church to work and learn under another pastor and in his ministry. We should be able and willing to train our own people.
     
  8. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    RE:Calvin a Baptist?

    The influence of John Calvin had begun to be felt in English affairs. His books had appeared in translations in England. He was responsible in a large measure for the demon of hate and fierce hostility which the Baptists of England had to encounter. He advised that "Anabaptists and reactionists should be alike put to death" (Froude, History of England, V. p. 99). He wrote a letter to Lord Protector Somerset, the translation was probably made by Archbishop Cranmer (Calvin to the Protector, MSS. Domestic Edward VI, V. 1548) to the effect: "These altogether deserve to be well punished by the sword, seeing that they do conspire against God, who had set him in his royal seat."

    Calvin hated the anabaptists, and now some want to say Calvin was a Baptist, go figure!
     
  9. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    MRCoon,

    I think you make an excellent point. Churches need to be more willing to train all their members in these things. Pastors need to be more willing to bring up some young Preacher's Boys and teach them in practical, hands-on training sessions. Even if the pastor only can provide some basic understanding of how to preach, how to put together a sermon, and how to deliver it.....imagine how much further those young men will be starting out if they do decide they need to go to a Bible college?
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I can't imagine putting John Dagg , in the same sentence with Jack Hyles . Nor can I imagine John Bunyan mentioned in the same breath with Lester Roloff . The Baptism issue is rather secondary . Dagg and Bunyan had much more in common with non-Baptists such as Matthew Henry and J.C.Ryle .
     
  11. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Who said that Calvin was a Baptist?
    BTW contrary to what has been implied by overzealous landmarkers, anabaptists and a baptists are not the same thing.
     
  12. savethebaptists

    savethebaptists New Member

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    J.D. i don't believe in a holy roman catholic church. i believe in the universal church of believers but that is not one that emphasizes theonomy and dominion. someone had asked a question and i was simply stating my answer or i was giving a reply to someone

    and about a such "unorthodox work", don't bet on it. i think that many baptists are and have been led away by the thinking of reformed catholic reconstructioninsts (i.e. john piper, etc.) and i truly believe that this work would have been orthodox in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.which is when rationalism started to infiltrate all the christian denominations.
     
  13. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    I think that the author of your book has manufactured the term "reformed catholic reconstructionist" and duped you into believe that their is some grand consipricy to destroy Baptist churches.

    What I believe is happening is not that our churches are being "led away", but returning to a biblical and historical baptist postion. I believe they are casting off the chains of Finneyism and revivalism and returning to the God-centered churches that Baptists once were. They are awakening to the reality that years of "guilting" people into "descisions" rather than simply uplifting Christ and letting the Holy Spirit change peoples lives, produced man-centered, deppresed Christians at best.

    I searched the web regarding the author of your book and notice that he belongs to a group of baptists he believe that the government is out to close baptist Churches, and that they should not pay taxes. (Remember the IBT scandel). I would doubt his credibilty if he adheres to this groups ideology.
     
  14. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Since Calvin wasn't a Baptist, then why do so many professing Baptists hold to a man's doctrine? Simply they are not aware of the complete teaching of the Bible in regards to salvation is of grace, and that God is not a respector of persons.:praying:

    Could it be the infiltration of a false teaching into the ranks of Baptists? It is.:praying:
     
  15. Hvnsaved

    Hvnsaved New Member

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    I don't think Schofield was a reputable "scholar" period.
     
  16. Hvnsaved

    Hvnsaved New Member

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    :tongue3: I don't think Schofield was a reputable "scholar" period.
     
  17. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    1. It's not a man's doctrine it is biblical, Calvin simply articulated Bible truth.

    2. Salvation is of grace, calvinists believe this as well.

    3. God does not show any respect of persons in electing them to salvation since He does so according to the good pleasure of His will; it is an act of His grace toward undeserving sinners. There is nothing in the sinner that God respects when He made His choice before the foundation of the world.

    4. Could be a return to historic Baptist and biblical doctrine, and a God-centered rather than man-centered, purpose? It is.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  18. savethebaptists

    savethebaptists New Member

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    i don't know how you can say that it could be a return to historic baptist and biblical knowledge. calvin revived an older catholic doctrine, augustinianism. where in the bible do you see that the sacrements are a means to grace? ( a belief of calvin)
     
  19. savethebaptists

    savethebaptists New Member

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    would you please explain "returning to biblical and historical baptists position"

    and your other points, with which i disagree, i'll do more research on.:type:
     
  20. Fred Moritz

    Fred Moritz New Member

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    Fred Moritz

    Shannon L:

    To clear up the "fog on the blog" you are talking about Baptist World Mission. I don't spend much time on these boards, but I need to clarify where we stand. I am amazed you have not been to our web site and seen it for yourself.

    Our doctrinal statement is clear. The only place where we address the issue of Calvinism is when we state our belief that Christ died for the sins of all men. Is anything unclear about that?

    We also state that there is a distinction between Israel and the church. That makes us dispensationalists.

    We affirm our belief in the pre-mil and pre-trib rapture of the church.

    Missionaries who apply and are appointed by BWM must agree to that doctrinal position as well as submit to a thorough doctrinal screening. They also sign an annual affirmation of their continued agreement with the doctrinal statement.

    Sadly, we have had some missionaries change their position. A few years ago one affirmed belief in the limited atonement and resigned. We have had a couple of folks embrace the pre-wrath rapture position in contradistinction to our pre-mil and pre-trib policy. They also resigned. The one of whom you spoke simply resigned. I know he wrestled with some of these issues but he remains a friend.

    Our position is quite clear. It has been for 45 years.

    Fred Moritz
    Executive Director
    Baptist World Mission
     
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