The Galatians fight back

Grace: Unmerited favor.

Easy.

Unmerited - (Nothing done for it. No price or WORK to pay.

Favor- Favorite - Delighted in more than another. hmm.... sounds like elect to me..

Umerited favor- Election based upon NOTHING of the one being favored but for the delight of the soveriegnty choosing.

 

Favor is not a choice of one over another, it is your behavior toward the one over another. You have previously agree that God "gives" his grace to all, thus God favors (a behaviour) all. Why do you want to change that now? Is it not convenient to your doctrine?

 

I think your confusing me with another... I didn't say God gives grace to all.

I would always clarify, and so would any other careful student of sotierology, what Kind of grace being talked about.

Common grace - given to all... i.e. rain...
Effectual grace - given to the "favored" for salvation.

"Favor is not a choice of one over another, it is your behavior toward the one over another."

What the? ... That's a tautology. You still "choose" to have the behavior on one over another...

Your just in a corner and trying to define your way out with self refuting definitions.

I guess I didn't choose a Porche over a Jag when I went shopping for cars, sorry... I didn't know I was just having a behaviour towards the Porsche!

 

Wes and Mike,

Are you both saying that all the verses of the NT that talk about God giving his Grace are not true?

Larry gave you a detailed list of verses in the NT that prove conclusively that God gives Grace.

You talk about us Calvinists twisting scripture - you are simply ignoring it.

 

The best that I can find in scripture about God's grace is that He has but one unilateral and universal Grace. It is human perception, driven by the human's condition or situation, that causes the human to label God's one grace with a myriad of names, e.g. prevenient, saving, merciful, effectual, etc. Grace is Grace, it is not a fruit basket!

 

All I want is someone to tell me exactly how God gives, as in transferance of ownership, His grace to man. Until one does that, I will continue to jump all over those posts that say God gives grace. Likewise faith which NO one can say how God gives what He himself does not have. When someone does explain how God transfers ownership of Faith from himself to man, we can then have a good discussion of it. But I've been waiting for someone to come along who knows how that occurs. I'm no longer holding my breath though.

 

Wes and Mike,

Here's what the Bible Clearly says. Apparently you both have a problem accepting the Bible as God's Word.

Romans 12:3 3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure

Romans 12:6 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us , each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

1 Corinthians 1:4 4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus ,

1 Corinthians 3:10 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me , like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Ephesians 4:7 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

James 4:6 6 But He gives a greater grace . Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that would come to you searched and carefully investigated.

 

Hardsheller
The Grace that is given isn't a substance but a favor. Can you weigh it like a box. If God gave us His grace then we should be able to give it to someone else. Granting a favor is doing something for you, not giving something to you.
Wow did you prove something here
We don't ignore it we just understand it
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Mike,

I never said it was a substance. Where do you get these ideas?

I believe if a Calvinist stopped you on the highway and told you the bridge was out you would run your car off into the canyon rather than believe anything a Calvinist told you.

 

We'll see.

This is just like I said, God in the creation, when He made us, each in His image, and gave us each a measure of the same attributes that He himself possesses. He expects us to use those attributes, you know, Love, grace, mercy, tenderness, justice, humility, and the rest. He knows how he made us and he expects us to use what he gave us without his constant intervention in our lives. He does however expect us to love and honor the gift giver.

God gave us each gifts that we are to use as members of the body. We are to do so while God provides his grace in which we can minister with our God given gifts.

Ah! one of my favorites. I too thank God for giving me this gift out of his Grace, Namely Jesus, His only begotten Son.

Paul was given the gift of being able to lay a foundation for FAITH. His writings are full of that foundation. Yes it was a gift of God, out of his Grace that Paul should be the one to write down the foundational truths of the Christian faith. And just look at all those who are building upon that foundation, and hopefully doing so carefully.

What was Christ's gift? His own life which was graciously given to atone for sin so that we can while God the Father is extending his favor over the past 2000 years, to us.

We all extend our grace in the same manner that God does his. We all are opposed to the Proud, even withholding from them, and we all are gracious to the Humble. We are made in the image of God.

The prophets were all under the law, they searched for and investigated to find the Grace that is now ours through Jesus Christ. What wonderful grace.

 

Hi Wes;
Good post a-men
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Wes,

I have never seen anyone twist scripture in this fashion concerning Grace. This is truly amazing and sad.

Mike says Grace is not a substance and cannot be weighed buy yet Barnabas could see it in the Church at Antioch. Acts 11:23

Wes, Apollos came into Achaia and helped those who had believed through grace.

Mike, it's not a substance you say - but we can surely stand in it the Bible says! Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You guys are straining at gnats and swallowing camels in order to take potshots at Calvinists who are not your enemies but your brothers in Christ.

 

Hardsheller,

Your lack of understanding concerning the essence of Grace is appalling.

Grace, regardless of who possesses it is not a substance!

It is not a commodity that one can transfer possession of!

Grace is a behavioral attribute of the one possessing it, and all mankind, made in the image of God are given grace as part of the human that God created and it is passed from generation to generation because that it the way God made man.

Now that does not mean that every human knows what it is, or how to use it. But even the greatest sinners have grace. You've heard the phrase "honor among thieves", will there is a certain dimension of grace among them too in which they being of common mind do not do "evil things" to each other. As Christians we too have a code that says we behave graciously toward each other. If we did not have grace within us, we could not obey that code! Neither could we be obedient to God and Love one another if we did not have Love within us. Sinners have love, even agape love within themselves too! God made man that way.

God's grace is the same as ours, He gave ours to us in the creation, and like ours, His is manifested in His behavior toward man. We are currently enjoying God's favor toward man, and we can therefore Hear the word of God and gain faith in God, and through our faith in God have everlasting life! SALVATION!

There is no twist of scripture to arrive at the beliefs that I have, but there is lack of understanding of scripture that has you where you are!

By the way, You can "see" grace when others are exhibiting it in their behavior toward you and others! It is not mysterious!

 

Hi Hardsheller;

Maybe you should read what you wrote above. If you consider me a brother in Christ then why is it your conversation is accusing me of what you are guilty of. You tell us we twist scripture;

The first words out of your mouth. If you disagreed you could have said simply I disagree. but no you couldn't do that. You had to accuse. I didn't mention scripture so you accuse me falsely. This is your question of me and my answer;

Then you take it off in a completely different direction and accuse us of twisting scripture. It seems your just not being very truthful.

I do not deny that we are saved by faith and Grace or that we stand in it. However what this has to do with it's substance is beyond me. Both are something we cannot see. Therefore it has no physical substance. What we see spiritually is spiritual and has no substance. You seem to be trying to make a big deal out of what you imagine I should believe.

Next you'll be accusing us of hating you as well. I wouldn't be here arguing with you to get you to see the truth if I hated you.
I'd just let you go your own way. I love those with whom I have discussions with.Even if they disagree with me. If you treat me with respect I'll do the same to you. I treat everyone with respect until they disrespect me
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Wes, You are not defining Biblical Grace but rather some warm fuzzy human attribute you see in all people.

Biblical Grace is God's Unmerited Favor toward human beings - not all human beings because all humans don't get or recognize saving grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Make no mistake about it - By Grace we are Saved.
Lost people don't have this Saving Grace!

 

Hi Hardsheller;

That's true but we can only have that Grace through faith.
5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

That's true but we can only have that Grace through faith.
5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Mike,

I Agree...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So what's the big Disagreement?

 

Hi Hardsheller;
You said;

No disagreement, just wondering if you feel these both say the same thing. Although in different ways. Eph 2:8 and Romans 5:2
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
You see Romans 5:2 shows exactly that we do not have grace first because we have to have faith first. It says "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace"
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


It seems the disageement is about where the faith comes from. Is it something that one chooses to have and therefore one obtains God's grace or is it something that God gives to one?

Oh, and faith IS a substance although it is not a physical substance that can be put into a box and weighed. Not all substances are physical substances.

 

Showing your ignorance of truth again Hardsheller?

If you truly believe that grace saves us, explain how it does it! I said that grace is not a mystery, but you say is it because you say it saves us. I've never seen anyone saved by grace! So tell me how it works!