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The Galatians fight back

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Showing your ignorance of truth again Hardsheller?

    If you truly believe that grace saves us, explain how it does it! I said that grace is not a mystery, but you say is it because you say it saves us. I've never seen anyone saved by grace! So tell me how it works!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Wes, I didn't say it first - St. Paul did.

    Your argument is with him and God not with me.

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
     
  2. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    No disagreement, just wondering if you feel these both say the same thing. Although in different ways. Eph 2:8 and Romans 5:2
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    You see Romans 5:2 shows exactly that we do not have grace first because we have to have faith first. It says "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace"
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely, Paul does not contradict himself by saying these things. He merely affirms the reality of Salvation.

    There is no salvation without grace and faith.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    The writer of Hebrews is not defining faith. But rather describing the effect of faith. He is saying that our faith is based upon what we hope for and is the means of describing what we cannot see.

    New Covenant wise, we all hope that the promises made by Jesus get fulfilled in us, thus we hope for our Salvation by God, and our faith is the substance of that hope.

    Our faith is the "tangible" of our hopes the meat of that which we cannot see!

    None of us can see the future and our salvation is always future for us while we live this natural life.

    Our faith is how we communicate the expectation of our hopes.

    There is substance in our faith, that substance is our hopes, and expectations. Faith itself is not a substance that can be measured, nor is it a commodity that one can transfer ownership of. I cannot give you one iota of my faith nor can you give me one iota of your faith. God has no faith to give. So that leaves faith as individually and uniquely 100% pure human.
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Showing your ignorance of truth again Hardsheller?

    If you truly believe that grace saves us, explain how it does it! I said that grace is not a mystery, but you say is it because you say it saves us. I've never seen anyone saved by grace! So tell me how it works!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Wes, I didn't say it first - St. Paul did.

    Your argument is with him and God not with me.

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well Hardsheller, If you are going to demand that others agree with you about it, YOU'd better be able to explain it! If you can't you don't own it, and you're nothing but a parrot!
     
  5. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Wes,

    I count it an honor to parrot the Scriptures and agree with the Apostle Paul.

    I don't have to explain it or prove it. God said it, Paul wrote it, and I believe it.

    But just to humor you - Grace is an external saving reality that comes from God to man, that's why Paul says by grace are ye saved. Not your grace but God's Grace. Not some nebulous undefinable common attribute of humans but a God directed favor that He bestows upon the recipients of His Salvation.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Hardsheller,
    I repeat, If you can't explain it you don't own it!

    I'm not convinced that God did say it, but I am convinced Paul wrote it, and I take your word for you believing it.

    If you don't understand the basics of Grace, don't preach grace! Your post says you don't!
     
  7. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Wes,

    Let me get this straight. You think there are parts of the Bible that are uninspired?

    If so then how do you ever know which is and which isn't?

    I do understand the basics of Grace. God gives us Salvation which we don't deserve by His Grace which is unmerited favor. You persist in trying to make Grace fit your works theology.

    This is why I don't like to debate nonBaptists on this board. We are opposed from the get go and will never agree on Salvation.
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    We don't have to explain it to know Him.
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

    Explain it yourself man where's me crackers!? :cool: Heirs need only know Him and He them praise the Lord.

    johnp.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I did not say UNINSPIRED, I simply said that I don't think God spoke every word of it! And, indeed Paul even says that of parts of his own writings!

    That's one of the failure factors of taking the bible TOO LITERALLY, and applying your own rules, or the rules of your particular denominational persuasion, to it! You know, its the ol' "round hole and square peg problem"? If you don't take the whole of God's word, which includes his creation, then you are going to be terribly confused by what the bible says! And NO! I am not saying to be open to "every wind of doctrine". But by all means do not go into your private bible study with a closed mind! The Holy Spirit will not open it for you!
     
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    We don't have to explain it to know Him.
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

    Explain it yourself man where's me crackers!? :cool: Heirs need only know Him and He them praise the Lord.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Typical response of a closed mind!
     
  11. here now

    here now Member

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    Hardsheller says in respose to Wes:
    Let me get this straight. You think there are parts of the Bible that are uninspired?

    If so then how do you ever know which is and which isn't?

    I don't have to explain it or prove it. God said it, Paul wrote it, and I believe it.


    I say:
    Isn't that the truth.
    If one doesn't believe that the Bible(the WHOLE Bible)isn't the TRUE WORD OF GOD then what on earth does one have? I know that I would feel pretty hopeless if I did not know and trust in God's Holy Word 100%. I know through my faith and trust in him that He gives His creation everything that we need to know about Him in the Bible.

    Sincerely,
    Here Now
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.
    Regardless I'll take that as a compliment. :cool:

    What do you believe in Wes? You don't even believe the bits in red! MT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    What you say? He is only with us if we are doing! He says He will never leave us or foresake us. You say, "Watch your step. He can't be trusted to keep His word."

    johnp.
     
  13. here now

    here now Member

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    Wes says:
    I did not say UNINSPIRED, I simply said that I don't think God spoke every word of it! And, indeed Paul even says that of parts of his own writings!

    Wes,
    Where does Paul say this?
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Herenow;
    When you say Bible which one they all say something different. Which one is right they can't all be right because they don't all same the same thing.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Mike,

    Let's use yours. What version is it?
     
  16. here now

    here now Member

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    Hi ILL,
    The one that God has put into my heart to trust is the King James Version.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Here now,
    Did God speak the book of LUKE? Did God speak the book of Acts? Did God speak the book of Romans, or the letters to the Corinthians, or the Colossians, or the Galations, or....? NO! Did God inspire the writers? YES! Did they write what they were inspired to write? YES!

    Luke says that HE is writing to someone named Theopolus, and He is relating facts about the early church. Do you think God needed to tell Luke what to write when Luke was living and experiencing the events He wrote about?

    Did God inspire what Luke wrote? In a way, but not directly. God does not intervene in that manner. Or haven't you noticed that God is not there with you every second of your day telling you what to do, what to think, what to say, what to write when you write? Luke was not much different than you and I, and probably not as educated as either of us!

    No, I am not saying that God ever really leaves us, but he did make us in his image, giving us abilities with which to carry out his commandments, else he would not have given us commandments to carry out! Love thy neighbor as thyself. If God had not in the creation, given us love with which to do that, He certainly would not have commanded us to do it!

    If we did not have the innate capability to "honor our fathers and mothers", God would not have commanded us to do so!

    If we did not have the innate capability to hear, God would not have said we are to "hear the word of God". And those, or similar words are found throughout the OLD and NEW Testaments!

    If the innate capability did not exist in us, God would not command us to do what he commands us to do!

    In the experience of the Apostle John when he was "taken up" into heaven where things were "revealed to him". He was instructed to write about what he saw! Some of the things he was told not to reveal. The result is that we have the book of Revelation! God did not tell John every word to write, but he did show him the big picture to write about!

    As for the bible, Has it failed you? If it has not failed you, it is TRUSTWORTHY...regardless of who actually wrote the words.
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Herenow;
    We at least agree on the proper text.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. here now

    here now Member

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    Wes,
    Please answer this. I would like to read it. Thank you.
     
  20. here now

    here now Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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