The Galatians fight back

Salvation is conditional and you've place the cart before the horse. Being saved is Salvation Being saved is regeneration. No where in scripture is Grace applied unless it is through faith. Calvinism's Idea of regeneration before faith is false. If we are renewed to God with out faith and with out choice then God has no love for man and man can't have love for Him.

If man is regenerated before, or in order to have faith, then he is saved with out faith.
You claim man is regenerated first so that he can believe.
What is erroneous is this false doctrine that you can not prove with scripture.
Calvinism has taken a term that means saved and turned it into an impossibility. The grace we need for regeneration is not applied unless it is through faith...
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]You're not a Baptist are you?

 

Hi Hardsheller;

Yes I am. "Bible Baptist". Actually IMO Calvinist aren't really Baptist. The true Baptist existed before Augustine and were not reformers of the Catholic Faith.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

So Charles Spurgeon was not a Baptist?

 

Yes I am. "Bible Baptist". Actually IMO Calvinist aren't really Baptist. The true Baptist existed before Augustine and were not reformers of the Catholic Faith.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]So your church that you belong to right now can trace its beginnings all the way back to the Bible?

You have all the documents which prove this that you believe?

 

Hi Hardsheller;
This forum is not about history. What's your point are you in disagreement that I am a Baptist. Are you just another who when they can't convince someone of there doctrine they start to attack. It seems this is the tactics of most Calvinist. Is it yours?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Hardsheller;
The point is if you can't prove with scripture that we are in fact regenerated before we have faith. Then you have no scriptural bases to believe such a doctrine. It is a total fabrication of man. Do you place your trust in the wisdom of man?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

It's just interesting to me that you would construct your church history without definite proof and discount opposing views that do offer historical proof.

 

Hi Hardsheller;

Ever hear of John The Baptist? This is where true baptist get there name from. As far as your historcial proof you haven't shown any. What I need is biblical proof and you have none. So what proof have you shown for anything? Please show me?
May Christ Shine His Light on Us all;
Mike

 

What Historical Proof do you want?
What Biblical Proof do you want?

I don't even know what the question is anymore!

 

Hi Hardsheller;
I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

I really don't need man's historical proof. I need biblical proof for being regenerated in order to have faith.
As I said before Agrippa was convicted yet he wasn't saved so if regeneration brings on conviction,and faith, show me scripture that proves this.
If this is correct in what you believe then explain why you would believe something like this with out biblical proof.
Calvinist claim that man is unable to respond in his natural state because they say he will only choose what his desires dictate.
I disagree based on the fact that scripture never says man cannot respond to the gospel based on his condition. Calvinist use this scripture to prove man is unable to understand;

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I only disagree with this interpretation because this passage is talking about the deeper things of God and not the gospel;

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

It is clear that Agrippa understood what Paul preached to him and admitted that he was almost persuaded. No one is almost convinced with out understanding.


May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Agrippa was almost convicted by Paul's argument - There is no evidence in this passage that he was convicted by the Holy Spirit.

To understand the words a person uses and the human reasoning behind it is one thing. To be impressed by the Holy Spirit is quite another.

Show me the evidence that Agrippa was convicted by the Holy Spirit.

 

This is not a history discussion. If you want to discuss history, do it elsewhere.

This is not true.

 

Hi Hardsheller;
All the evidence is there in;

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

How can one be almost persuaded without conviction? If Agrippa didn't understand what Paul preached he wouldn't have even come close to persuasion. He must have swallowed hard and rejected what he heard to say that he was almost persuaded. This fact shows that he was convicted.
So if Cor2:14 is as Calvinism claims then how did Agrippa become convinced?

I beg your pardon. Paul preached the Gospel to Agrippa and you call it just words.
You deny that the words Paul spoke to Agrippa were words motivated by the Spirit. They weren't just Pauls words. They were the words of the Holy Spirit. You know and I know that the Spirit used Paul to preach the gospel but because Agrippa wasn't saved you deny that the Spirit was using Paul to minister to Agrippa. You also deny that even to consider conversion one has to be impressed by the Spirit. Your Idea that Conviction doesn't happen unless you are regenerated is wrong.
I was convicted long before I trusted in the Lord. I was convicted everytime I heard the gospel yet it took years for me to surrender. It took many convictions. There is a huge difference between conviction and conversion. Conviction is the realization you are a sinner and that you stand guilty before God with no excuses. Conversion is the surrender to God's will.

Here is proof that faith comes before conversion and before the Holy Spirit.
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Here we have Peter a follower of Christ for three years and Christ prayed for him that his faith fail not and this faith is very obviously present before conversion yet Peter and all of the disciples have had no regeneration because if they had they would already be converted. Conversion is the results of conviction isn't it? Yet Peter has faith that Christ prayed not to fail and all this before receiving the comforter, the Holy Spirit. Faith always comes before Grace or regeneration. " For by grace are ye saved through faith;" We are saved by Grace through faith there is no saving Grace without coming through faith ,and yes this is proof.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

These are the weakest proofs I've ever seen to combat Calvinism.

The Acts 26 passage tells how a lost man heard the gospel and remained lost. You don't build any kind of doctrine of or for salvation on the testimony of a lost man. And again there is no proof that the man was under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Your use of Corinthians 2:14 denies the text, context and the historical understanding of the word "natural" by Baptists for centuries. The natural man is an "unregenerate" man.

The Luke passage 22:31-32 again is another glaring example of misunderstanding. You don't read back into the Bible - modern words and understanding - no matter how much you want to.

Read the passage again - the word converted does not mean when you are saved but means when you turn back. And Peter's faith would not fail him because Jesus had already prayed that it would not. It was predetermined by Jesus and he had cleared it with the Father.

If you want to discredit Calvinism you're going to have to do better than this.

 

Hi Hardsheller;

Weak!!! You show no proof because you simply have none then you call what God says weak. Did the truth hurt you so much that all you have is false accusation of God's own words? God's word is stronger than your Calvinism Huh!
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

False accusation of God's own words? You've got to be kidding me.

Did you even read what I wrote? Or is your mind so made up that you will not even consider that you might not have all the answers?

 

Hard sheller;
Didn't you make this statement;

This is my proof
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Doesn't verse 22 indicate that Peter hadn't been converted when Christ said "When thou art converted" and you admitted that Peter had faith. You didn't disprove what I said you just made wild accusations about God's word.
Then you come back and say;

No I'm not kidding I'm dead serious. Then you said.

Yes I did read what you wrote. You called Gods word weak when I offered it as proof, yet you can't disprove what I said. Your just in denial of scripture. Must be that carnal side that won't let you see the truth because your blinded by this false doctrine of regeneration you have.
You haven't backed it up yet and you haven't torn down what I have presented. Open your eyes friend before you trip and fall. You don't have a legg to stand on and you still cling to your false doctrine. If it isn't false prove it. You've had your chance to prove me wrong don't you have the fortitude, or is your proof your own words?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

You offered up your interpretation of God's Word not God's Word as proof. Your interpretation is weak.

The Luke passage does not indicate that Peter is not saved but rather that he is going to be tested and then when his Faith prevails and it will because Jesus has predetermined it to then he will turn back.

So yes I am calling your interpretation of God's Word weak.

I haven't discussed regeneration with you. You must be thinking about somebody else.

 

Can you provide any evidence whatever that the Holy Spirit has forced a single human being to do something the human does not want to do? Or, to believe something the human does not want to believe?

 

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I will sprinkle ..
I will cleanse you..
I will give you a new heart..
I will put a new spirit in you..
I will take away your stoney heart..
I will give you a heart of flesh..
I will put my spirit in you..
I will CAUSE you to walk in my statutes..

Hmmm .... All God, no man... note God will CAUSE...ILL..
Why? Because NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD, NO NOT ONE.

HE SEEKS EVIL ALWAYS SINCE HIS YOUTH.