The Galatians fight back

Can you provide any evidence whatever that the Holy Spirit has forced a single human being to do something the human does not want to do? Or, to believe something the human does not want to believe? </font>[/QUOTE]The Holy Spirit never forces a human being to do something that he does not want to do. Nor does the Holy Spirit force someone to believe something he does not wish to believe.

Strange, where did you ever get this idea?

 

Why do you use this passage, it is not talking to the gentiles? It is specifically addressed to Israel! I am not convinced that it has happened, else the Jews would have recognized and welcomed God the Son into their midst. But alas they did not! So what evidence to you offer that one is "forced".

 

Can you provide any evidence whatever that the Holy Spirit has forced a single human being to do something the human does not want to do? Or, to believe something the human does not want to believe? </font>[/QUOTE]The Holy Spirit never forces a human being to do something that he does not want to do. Nor does the Holy Spirit force someone to believe something he does not wish to believe.

Strange, where did you ever get this idea? </font>[/QUOTE]John the Baptist was sent to be the forerunner for the Christ! Why wasn't the Holy Spirit give that Job? It would have been a simple matter for the Holy Spirit to precondition the whole of Israel to accept the Messiah. But that did not happen...Why? It is because God, in his grace does not force man to do or to believe. He created man with the capability to hear and to respond. Israel as a whole did not! However, the Gentiles upon hearing, did!

So, I am still looking for evidence that the Holy Spirit Forces man to do and or to believe.

 

Can you provide any evidence whatever that the Holy Spirit has forced a single human being to do something the human does not want to do? Or, to believe something the human does not want to believe? </font>[/QUOTE]The Holy Spirit never forces a human being to do something that he does not want to do. Nor does the Holy Spirit force someone to believe something he does not wish to believe.

Strange, where did you ever get this idea? </font>[/QUOTE]John the Baptist was sent to be the forerunner for the Christ! Why wasn't the Holy Spirit give that Job? It would have been a simple matter for the Holy Spirit to precondition the whole of Israel to accept the Messiah. But that did not happen...Why? It is because God, in his grace does not force man to do or to believe. He created man with the capability to hear and to respond. Israel as a whole did not! However, the Gentiles upon hearing, did!

So, I am still looking for evidence that the Holy Spirit Forces man to do and or to believe. </font>[/QUOTE]I know of no Biblical Theology that teaches such. Are you claiming that Calvinism does?

 

The Oft stated condition of regeneration prior to belief is a clear indicator that one must be "preconditioned" (forced if you will) to be able to believe. Wouldn't you agree that is one of Calvinism's strong points?

 

Wes,

If you perceive regeneration in this way then you would be "forced" to understand creation in a similar way.

God before there was time "forced" the universe into creation. God "forced" a pile of clay to be a human being.

Simply because we don't understand fully how God does something doesn't give us liberty to describe God in such ways as He is clearly NOT described in Scripture.

Does God ever Save anyone who is not willing? I've never seen it happen. I've never heard of it happening. In fact just the opposite is true. Every Salvation testimony I've ever heard has been joy filled. Nobody ever in my presence has testified, "God forced me to become a Christian."

 

Hi Hardsheller;
Proof is not my words but the authority of scripture. You still offer no defense of your false doctrine. Admit it you have nothing to back up your false claims. All you have is criticism.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So you don't interpret Scripture? You could have fooled me.

I have not made any false claims. Show me where I did and I will admit it.

BTW, Love the way you debate - Just say what you want to say and ignore the other person.

 

That's exactly what Creation is sir, "MAKING (forcing) something where nothing before existed"

Regeneration before belief is forcing one into something that the one does not want to or cannot be. I do not see God in scripture describing "being born again" in that manner, but rather in the manner of Hearing the word and believing. Once we hear we must in ourselves evaluate what we hear and decide to believe or reject what we've heard. Once we believe, the Holy spirit then affirms what we have heard and believed, and that brings us great joy!

God made us with the capability to hear and to decide for ourself what we will believe. Once we choose to believe HIM, we place our initial faith in His Promises, and we then embark on learning more and more and more. The more we learn the greater our faith becomes!

 

Wes,

Are you then saying that the Gospel is merely another idea or way of life that men may choose as opposed to other ideas and ways of life?

Is there any supernatural element in the Gospel or presentation thereof that makes it desirable for some and not for others?

 

How else can one view the Gospel except as another way of life? Jesus came to call all who would believe in Him OUT OF ONE LIFESTYLE INTO ANOTHER. It is one among many similar "ways of life". It is ONLY when BELIEF is applied that it has any power to transform. That is why God the Son says "whosoever believes in me shall have life" Therefore it is a choice that we humans must make. It is we who hear the Gospel message and take it to heart. Just as a Buddhist takes His religion to heart, a Muslim takes his religion to heart, etc.

There is no power in any of them UNTIL one takes its message to heart! Then through belief one's life is transformed and conformed to that which the one believes. Just look at all who are transformed by their belief in Money and riches, etc. Then look at the "classic bum" who believes in nothing!

We are the product of our beliefs, but for Christians, our belief states that God is with us, that we are made in His image and therefore our belief transforms us from sinner to saint, etc. Our belief says that we are saved by God through our faith ALONE and that we can do nothing to make ourselves acceptable to Him except our belief in Him.

Supernatural element? ABSOLUTELY! Religion itself is "Supernatural", that is, it is not of the natural but of the spiritual which is not constrained by the natural.

 

Wes,

What caused you to believe the Gospel over all the other choices you had?

 

Hi Wes;
Hardsheller asked;

Don't tell him God threatened you with Hell;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

That was easy, I liked the promises! You see, I was not interested in 72 virgins! They only stay virgins once each then they are not virgins any more. While eternal life just keeps on going!

 

That was easy, I liked the promises! You see, I was not interested in 72 virgins! They only stay virgins once each then they are not virgins any more. While eternal life just keeps on going! </font>[/QUOTE]So there was no external activity by God? Call it Activity of the Holy Spirit - Drawing - Conviction - Whatever you will - are you denying that God had anything to do with your choice?

 

That was easy, I liked the promises! You see, I was not interested in 72 virgins! They only stay virgins once each then they are not virgins any more. While eternal life just keeps on going! </font>[/QUOTE]So there was no external activity by God? Call it Activity of the Holy Spirit - Drawing - Conviction - Whatever you will - are you denying that God had anything to do with your choice? </font>[/QUOTE]Now where do you find that in what I posted?
Are you making strawmen....again?

 

That was easy, I liked the promises! You see, I was not interested in 72 virgins! They only stay virgins once each then they are not virgins any more. While eternal life just keeps on going! </font>[/QUOTE]So there was no external activity by God? Call it Activity of the Holy Spirit - Drawing - Conviction - Whatever you will - are you denying that God had anything to do with your choice? </font>[/QUOTE]Now where do you find that in what I posted?
Are you making strawmen....again? </font>[/QUOTE]My mistake. I assumed by your silence or by your silly answer that you were avoiding the question.

So describe the work of the Holy Spirit/God in your salvation. What did He do and How did he do it? You were there - You should know.

 

NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD, NO NOT ONE.

As with Ez. 36. You didn't answer the question. The topic was forcing. I shown you where God will do all these things to Israel. You state this has nothing to do with the Gentiles... so? ... I can prove that easily also, but for this arguement you haven't answered the question. Will God DO this to Israel? Will He PUT A NEW SPIRIT in them and GIVE them a new heart?

 

Hi Hardsheller;
You said to tell you if you made any false claims;

Converted
CONVERTED, pp. Turned or changed from one substance or state to another; turned form one religion or sect to another; changed from a state of sin to a state of holiness; applied to a particular use; appropriated.

How can one discredit what isn't creditable?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT,
I wouldn't declare that All of Calvinism is not creditable, much of it is basic Christianity, but not all. And what is basic Christianity is being viewed from a different perspective than those who are Christian but do not align themselves with Calvin.

To say that Calvinism is not creditable, is to say that Calvinists are not Christian, and that simply is not true. They are simply not seeing their Christianity the way we do.

Same thing applies to Arminians!