The Galatians fight back

Hi Larry;

I am not wrong nor completely out of line. You have said the same demeaning things to me by suggesting "I need to believe it". You have not proven me wrong about Calvinism infact you have proven me right. This below is an example of your proof and the darkness;

How is it possible? because you say so or because the word says so. You can't prove squat with your words. You don't have the title of Vicar do you? What is possible is denied by you because what is possible is stated in scripture and this is you trying to cast doubt on it. You just need to believe it
You haven't disproven anything period. Your always directing people to the archives as if they could find you saying anything different there. Which is what you said to me when I first came here. I looked Larry and I have as yet seen anything proving squat by you or anyone else. You are to buzy adding your own coments to claim sola scriptura. So you are the one wrong Larry.
The only thing you have proven is that I'm human and I am not perfect. I sometimes miss spell a word and I even say "who's" instead of "whose". I sometimes am mistaken, but not this time Larry. As if by comparason of you, or I, you could prove that anyway.

Yeah right always accusing of what you yourself are most guilty of. What you call distortions I have backed up with scripture. You haven't proven anything.

Darkness is being deceived just as Eve was. Your doctrine is coverd with the darkness of Calvinism. A doctrine that has waverd all over the place down through the centuries.

I would think you would know better as well Larry. Everything you have said to me is nothing but demeaning coments. Like this

Just another of demeaning coments. Do you talk to your congregation this way?

I wouldn't call it truth Larry I disagree That it is. It's called debate Larry. You do know what that means don't you. Aren't you capable of defending your own beliefs. You are so quick to correct me for not knowing. When you won't even defend it with scripture alone. You have to attack me personally as the rest of your Calvinist friends do. You have failed to prove your side Larry and left it up to others. Then you have a fit when I misrepersent your beliefs. My! Oh! My! Will wonders never cease.
There have been a few intelligent Calvinist come here to offer there side but you've disagree with them as well. At least they didn't insult me and were helpful for me to see there side even if I disagree with it. I did notice they were reluctant to argue with you. I'm not Larry!. Dragg out and dust off your Bible and start proving me wrong in stead of just saying it Larry. Like I said your words with out scripture to prove it means nothing. Words are just words the proof is in the Book called Bible

You expect me to believe this when you make coments like this below.

Before you say that's a question let me say I know you know better. There is no question mark.

I know you like this so much I saved it for you;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;

That's not to insulting for you is it because I did include my self.
Mike

 

Just seeing if this works...

Your logic is what is insulting !!

 

Yep it works!

johnp.

 

Sweet...
Listen to Piper yet or have you been to busy eating fish n chips? Ha...

 

I've listened to two up to now. Romans 9:23-24 and the other is called 022705!
I think 022705 was about Hell and I was using his stuff on Wes before he had finished. I see that number is the date.

I have time tomorrow to get another one.

Our national dish is now curry n chips!

johnp.

 

Pastor Larry,

Then you do agree that 'believing' makes all the difference, that it is "Faith alone" whereby we are saved!

I knew you'd come around. I knew you were brighter than the rest of the Calvinists!

 

It is truly amazing what "brainwashing" does to one Larry. As oft as the truth has been presented to you, you are blocked from seeing it because of your Faith in Calvin!

 

How is it possible? because you say so or because the word says so.</font>[/QUOTE]The word say so. 1 John 2:19 says that some that "were of us went out from us because they were not really fo us." Therefore, a warning is appropriate for all so that you do not find yourself to be one described in 1 John 2:19. My position on the warning passages is not hte only position, but it is the standard one.

Yeah right always accusing of what you yourself are most guilty of. What you call distortions I have backed up with scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]My point about distortions was about you distorting what we believe. Go back and read. You overreacted and read it wrong. I was very gracious to you about that. You have distorted what we believe. For intance, you claimed that "regeneration preceding faith" means that someone is saved without believeing. That is false. We do not believe that. And we told you that many times. You kept on saying it anyway. That was wrong on your part.

Then feel free to prove this.

Just another of demeaning coments. Do you talk to your congregation this way?</font>[/QUOTE]What was demeaning about that?

I have done so longer than you have been here. You have yet to even challenge me to think about something. You repeat age old objections that have been answered longer than you and I put together have been alive.

What have I not defened with Scripture alone?

I haven't attacked you personally.

I have proven my side. I don't participate much because this is so silly most of the time. Your objections cannot even be taken seriously anymore. You keep saying the same things that have been said before, and you yourself have been taught the truth about them. But you keep repeating htem. Why should I keep repeating myself to someone who is not listening?

I have done that so many times.

It wasn't a question. It was a statement about your claiming to see the light. My response was, if you see the light, then you are playing teh devil's advocate. That has nothing to do with being saved. "Devil's advocate" is an argumentative technique when you present the arguments for the other side of the issue. I would be a devil's advocate if I argued for arminianism.

In the end, Mike, you will have to submit your theology to Scripture. I hope one day you will do that.

 

Every Calvinist believes we are saved by faith alone. No calvinist denies that. It has nothing to do with being bright. That is what Scripture teaches. And it has nothing to do with what I said, I don't think.

I have no faith in Calvin. I haven't even read Calvin. My calvinism came from the Bible. In 1992-95, my study of the Bible led me to believe what is known as Calvinism. At that time, I had no teaching on it. In fact, I was flying against what I had been taught. But in reading the Scripture, I came to believe that God was electing individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world. My belief was based on what God said.

It is unacceptable for you to talk about me or anyone else having faith in Calvin. That is not debate. It is a perjorative comment that accomplishes nothing. While I believe you are wrong, I think you are trying to follow Scripture. I don't think you have faith in anyone else. You need to temper your approach in this respect.

 

Hi Larry;

There are Calvinist here who claim to be saved by Grace alone. What would you say to them?

Calvinism is not taught from scripture with out guidance from some out side source. Calvinism relys to heavily of the ideas of men presented with seeming evidence from scripture. Calvin Himself had Augustine's writtings and Luther. You had to have someone to influeince you towards it. Either a preacher or Calvinist friend to guide you into it. Even Calvin said this was necessary for a new believer to understand Calvinism. You're a pastor and most likely learn even more about Calvinism in seminary.
May Christ Shine His Light on Us all;
Mike

 

Don't even think about it ILL. Faith is by which we are saved. Our understanding of how faith derives is YOUR problem.

 

Hi Again Larry;
Sorry I read from the bottom post up.

How is it wrong when Calvinist have told me that we are regenerated in order to have faith. Faith is the hope for something. This Hope is in Christ.
How many times have Calvinist stated that man cannot respond or even have faith unless they are enabled to by regeneration. Yet now it seems you aren't saying that at all. It either is what you believe or it isn't. Regeneration is being saved. If one has to be regenerated in order to believe then yes you are saying that man is saved before he believes. If so it is reasonable for me to say, that you believe that man is saved without believing. You believe he is saved first and justified afterwards.

I have many times and I'll still prove it everytime I'm challenged.

I am not the devils advocate. nor do I play it. It wasn't a question it was a statement

So now you don't see anything I say as a challge. Then why even Reply with you demeaning comments.

Absolutely nothing!

I would say the same of you
May Christ Shine His Light on Us all;
Mike

 

There are Calvinist here who claim to be saved by Grace alone. What would you say to them?</font>[/QUOTE]I would have to see what they say. The biblical position is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I haven't seen any calvinists here disagree with that.

 

Becuase regeneration and salvation are technically not the same thing. You have already been told that. Your statement that regeneration is being saved is inadequate and reveals a lack of understanding on your part. That error on your part is what has led to your problems. Again, you don't have to agree with us; just don't make up our position and say we are saved without faith. Calvinists don't believe that. There are some primitive Baptists who believe that. They are not Calvinists and they will tell you that.

Well, then some of your comments are inexplicable.

No, not really.

I don't.

But you would be wrong because I have repeatedly used Scripture to defend my beliefs, and you have no cogent response to you. Your responses depend on a denying what Scripture actually says, or taking the Scriptures out of their context. I can't accept that method of interpretation.

 

Hi Larry;
which is it faith alone or grace alone you said faith alone in your post before and now it is also grace alone. Alone means with out any thing else other wise it is not alone. So which is it? Does the Bible say we are say by both alone?
I haven't ever read that particular scripture

James said; Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Won't you show me where the Bible says we are saved by either alone.

How is it one can believe with out understanding. Which is by the way another claim by Calvinist on this board that we cannot understand because of the fall of man. God's word never says this either. I have been pointed to Romans 3 10-18 and to 1st. Cor 2:14. How ever neither one says that we cannot understand the gospel. The latter of which is talking about the things of the Spirit and not the gospel. False claims I'd say. I realize that you might say the things of the Spirit are the things of the gospel but then you can't prove that assumption either.

Again all we have is your word. and like I said words are just words unless they are God's words.
I have absolutely no reason to place any faith in your claims with out proof.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Claims of faith alone, grace alone, Scripture alone, total scripture alone, glory alone to God, where all generated by the reformers in the argumentation against the Catholic Church. To understand these terms in their historical context, you must understand the history of the arguments in context.

To say "sola fide !" and turn around and say "man must exercise his free will to believe, to have faith in.." is actually self refuting the MEANING from which the term "sola fide" derived.

You can't say you believe in the slogans of protest ism and then say "free will!" (Which is the Catholic stance). The terms by definition that History gave them are diametrically opposed to each other.

 

rc;

To take credit for every term there is I'd say is rather arrogant if not ignorant

I'm opposed to both really No man on this earth is responsible for what I believe and have never gone by either following. I follow Christ not Calvin or Armininius
I'm simply a born again Christian.
As far as the Catholic faith believing in free will. Your wrong they do not believe in free will. They believe Salvation is of the Church and you cannot have Salvation apart from it. This by the way is what Calvin stated in the Institutes of Christianity and is what he believed.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Actually it is as plain as day...

The Council of Trent very plainly states "Anyone that believes man does not have a FREE WILL and has totally fallen into bondage of his will (total depravity) let him be anathema.

This council was a direct response to Luther and the Reformation. The whole reason for the Council was to "scare" Catholics from turning (or investigating)Paulinian thought and leave the church.

I can get you article number and paragraph if you wish... because before I state something I document them, so if someone asks me, I have an answer so I don't look like I'm lying.

 

Grace alone is God's part, faith alone is what man does. These are not in contradiction. Historically and theologically, salvation is grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

In this context, James is answering the question about what kind of faith saves. He is not questioning whether faith alone saves.

Eph 2; Titus 3; the whole book of Romans. It's all over.

Do you understand everything about Christ? Of course not, but you still believe in him. Believing is not contingent on full understanding. When I began this journey, I knew the basics, but there were still unanswered questions. I still have some. But every day I learn, just as I do about God.

You'd say wrong. First, "understanding" does not have to do with facts and grammar. It has to do with significance. It is spiritual understanding. Secondly 1 Cor 2 is about the gospel. Read the context beginning at 1 Cor 1:18 and read right on through. It is plainly obvious that the gospel is the context.

I don't have to prove it. The gospel is clearly the context of the passage.

No, I have shown you from God's word.

If you believed my claims without proof, you would sinning. I have studiously avoided stating my opinion as dogmatic fact. Where I have been dogmatic, it is because Scripture is dogmatic. That is the test.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Would you be prepared to give us your testimony please ILUVLIGHT?

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART THREE LIFE IN CHRIST
CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON
ARTICLE 3
MAN'S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm

johnp.