Matt. 16:18 and Acts 2:31 are speaking of the same hell (hades)
Death is the gateway there. Hades the abode of the dead. The grave in Matt. 16:18 and Acts 2.
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The Gates of Hell
- Thread starter HAMel
- Start date
Matt. 16:18 and Acts 2:31 are speaking of the same hell (hades)
Death is the gateway there. Hades the abode of the dead. The grave in Matt. 16:18 and Acts 2.
But the context is different in the two passages. There is no talk of the resurrection of Christ in Matthew, but that is very clearly the viewpoint in Acts. Again, what is in view in Matthew is the church, but the Acts passage is not talking about the church. Matthew speaks of a gate, Acts doesn't. And so forth.
"A text without a context is a pretext."
Is Hades the destination in both Matt. and Acts?
No. It's a gate in Matthew. Why in the world would God want His church to go into Hell?
What is a gate in Matt.?
The wages if sin is death. Believe it or not that also applies to the church. We all die in Adam. Those wages, death is the gates of Hades. Jesus does not say Hell will not prevail against the church. It is death the gateway into Hades that will not prevail. Just as in 1 Cor. 15:55 O death,(The gateway) where [is] thy sting? O grave,(Hades) where [is] thy victory? Those who were dead have been made alive.
The destination is a gate. That's what you asked, isn't it? Are we communicating here?
Sorry, you have no Biblical basis for making sin the gate in the Matthew passage. No one will agree with you on that one. And no, I don't think the wages of sin being death applies to the church.
Death is the gate.
Hades is a place like say a city or the state of being dead.
Death is how you enter in. The gate one goes through to the place/state of the dead.
By resurrection the soul of Jesus was not left in Hades the city of the dead or place of the dead however you would like to apply it.
How did the soul of Jesus get to Hades except by death?
In Luke 16 when did the rich man enter Hades? What gate did he pass through to get there?
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Okay, I'll buy that explanation to an extent--not that Hades is an actual city (which is like Greek mythology) but a state of being dead. This is different from saying Christ went to Hell.
Sorry, there is no gate mentioned in the passage. To speak of a gate of some kind in Luke 16 is superfluous. And that is one place where the Greek hades should be translated "Hell," not "the place of the dead." So it is not a parallel passage to the others being discussed.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, (died, went through the gate of death)
He was in the realm of the living. (Died, the gate) now in the realm of the dead Hades and as those in 1 Thess. 4 were dead in Christ this begger is dead in Abraham which has the same meaning. He died in a covenant relationship.
the rich man also died,(went through the gate of death) and was buried;
Went from the realm of the living Through the gate of death into the realm of the dead Hades. And even though he thought he was in a covenant relationship with Abraham because he was a Jew relative to the kingdom of God he wasn't.
The begger was the servant of Abraham to whom he wanted to give all he had.
The rich man is Judah who had five whole brothers. Yet the promise was to Abraham and his one seed Christ (And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.) Notice you are currently an heir. You will inherit the kingdom of God that is be born into it at the coming of the Lord which is called in Romans 8:19 the manifestation of the sons of God.
At that time death, the gates of hell, will not have prevailed over the church of the living God. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death (the gates to hades) where is thy sting, O grave (Hades) where if thy victory?
thegospelgeek
New Member
I take it a bit different. I see the gates of Hell keeping the lost soul imprisoned like the gates of a prison. These "gates" can not prevail and keep those who place their faith in Christ. ie. the Church
Sorry. I don't care how many times you say it, the Greek word hades has no gate in it. Neither does the word thanatos ("death"). Sticking the word "gate" in parentheses doesn't make it so.
Here are the definitions from the Analytical Lexicon of Timothy and Barbar Friberg.
ᾅδης , ου , ὁ Hades (literally unseen place); (1) the place of the dead underworld (AC 2.27); (2) usually in the NT as the temporary underworld prison where the souls of the ungodly await the judgment (LU 16.23); (3) personified as following along after Death (RV 6.8)
θάνατος , ου , ὁ death; with every form of it in the NT treated not as a natural process but always as a destroying power related to sin and its consequences; (1) physically, as the separation of soul from body (physical) death (JN 11.13); (2) as a legal technical term, of capital punishment (physical) death (MT 26.66); (3) spiritually, as the separation of soul from God (spiritual) death (JN 5.24; JA 1.15), opposite ζωή (life); (4) spiritually, as the separation of soul from spirit or from the possibility of knowing God, as the result of judgment (eternal) death (RO 1.32); called second death in RV 2.11; 20.6; (5) by metonymy deadly disease, pestilence (RV 6.8)
I am not going to cut and paste everything but will post this from Robertson's Word Pictures.
"In the Old Testament the 'gates of Hades' (Sheol) never bears any other meaning (Isaiah 38:10; Wisd. 16:3; 3Macc. 5:51) than death," McNeile claims. See also Psalms 9:13; 107:18; Job 38:17 (pulai tanatou pulwroi aidou). It is not the picture of Hades attacking Christ's church, but of death's possible victory over the church.
Death is the gateway into Hades. That is how the soul of Jesus found it's way into Hades. He died on the cross. All who have been baptized into the church have or will die except those alive at Christ coming. They are the dead in Christ. However death will not prevail against them.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Even so means by the same manner, that is by resurrecting them from the realm of the dead God will bring them with Jesus into the kingdom of God.
It is death that is being talked about prevailing against the church in Matt. 16:18
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
It is the gate into the realm of the dead called Hades in the New and Sheol in the Old.
convicted1
Guest
Matt. 16: 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Now let's break this down and I will show you what I believe this means.
Greek word for "church": ekklēsia G1577
Thayer's definition:
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
d) in a Christian sense
1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
So I do think that "church" is an applicable word used here. Because we who are saved, God called out of darkness. So we are a "called out assembly", so to speak.
Greek word for "gates": pylē G4439
Thayer's definition
1) a gate
a) of the larger sort
1) in the wall of either a city
2) a palace
3) a town
4) the temple
5) a prison
2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
Greek word used for "hell": hadēs G86
Thayer's definition
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
And finally, "drum roll please", the Greek word for "prevail": katischyō
G2729
Thayer's definition
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail
So, in summation, this is what I think that Jesus meant by saying this.
No matter how hard Satan and his minions fight against the Church, which is Jesus' Bride, His body, His people, he will not win. When Jesus established His Church, He did so at the cross. Those that He saves through faith, will be placed in His Church which He built on THE Rock, which is Himself. IOW, Satan is fighting a lost(not losing) battle. He defeated satan when He came forth on that third and appointed morning!! Praise be to His name!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Now let's break this down and I will show you what I believe this means.
Greek word for "church": ekklēsia G1577
Thayer's definition:
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
d) in a Christian sense
1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
So I do think that "church" is an applicable word used here. Because we who are saved, God called out of darkness. So we are a "called out assembly", so to speak.
Greek word for "gates": pylē G4439
Thayer's definition
1) a gate
a) of the larger sort
1) in the wall of either a city
2) a palace
3) a town
4) the temple
5) a prison
2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
Greek word used for "hell": hadēs G86
Thayer's definition
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
And finally, "drum roll please", the Greek word for "prevail": katischyō
G2729
Thayer's definition
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail
So, in summation, this is what I think that Jesus meant by saying this.
No matter how hard Satan and his minions fight against the Church, which is Jesus' Bride, His body, His people, he will not win. When Jesus established His Church, He did so at the cross. Those that He saves through faith, will be placed in His Church which He built on THE Rock, which is Himself. IOW, Satan is fighting a lost(not losing) battle. He defeated satan when He came forth on that third and appointed morning!! Praise be to His name!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
I do like that you quote from Robertson. He's one of my favorites. However, look again at the verses given: Psalms 9:13; 107:18; Job 38:17, Isaiah 38:10.
In every case there are two words in the Hebrew, just as there are two in the Greek in Matt. 18, "gate" and "death." So if the meaning of "gate" was included in the meaning of hades/sheol, you would have to translate: "the gate of the gate to the place of the dead." That just doesn't hang together, doesn't sound right. So you have to interpret those passages as referring to the gate to the place of the dead, but you can't do that with any other passage using hades/sheol; that is, passages that don't include the word "gate."
Sounds right to me! :thumbs:
I assume you are directing this to me, though you don't say so.
Jesus Christ is the door to the kingdom of God.
The idea of a "kingdom of the dead" is not in the Bible, but is a concept taken from Greek mythology and idolatrous religion, wherein you had to cross the River Styx after death to get into the realm of Hades. When hades is used in the NT, it is not used with the meaning of the pagan Greeks, but is simply analogous to the Hebrew sheol, for which I've already given a definition from the most authoritative Hebrew lexicon.
John I should have read this post closer for you made my point that death is what is being spoken of as the gate. In both the old ref. Ps 9:13, 107:18 Isa 38:10 Job 38:17 there are two words one for gate (sha ar) and one for not death but the place of the dead (sheowl) The same in Matt. 16:18 0ne for gate (pyle) one for the place of the dead (hades)
If you look at the Septuagint of the OT passeges they use these same two Greek words.
And what ATR says about these OT passages is that the gate of sheowl (hell, hades) was always death.
Jesus is using gate the same in this passage. He will build his church and death will not pervail against it.
The very same idea is here: He is speaking of the church.
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. (Again) Or.
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Death shall not prevail against the church.
Does this contradict something you believe? If so what?
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the general rallying his troops before an offensive. His weapon is the church which is built on the rock (whatever interpretation of rock you prefer - Peter, the identity of Jesus, etc) to advance the kingdom of heaven and prevail against the gates of the kingdom of hades which guard the hearts of humans turned against God.
I've been meaning to get back here and interact more, especially with Percho. I've enjoyed the discussion. You'll forgive me, though, but my heart's not in it with the huge earthquake we've just experienced here in Japan, the 5th largest in the world since 1900 and the biggest in recorded history in Japan.
We have friends still out of contact. Please check over in the Missions/Evangelism forum for more information.
We have friends still out of contact. Please check over in the Missions/Evangelism forum for more information.